OK EPA stove owners, fill me in

[Rspike]

EPA stoves.

O'Holy he(( , Did i miss out on a debate?? J/K
Butch(OH) , If you post the information for the home your looking to heat and as much info on it i can point you in the right direction.

Any specific info you need ,I'll let you know and or I'll do my best to find out.

 

[Butch(OH)]

O'Holy he(( , Did i miss out on a debate?? J/K
Butch(OH) , If you post the information for the home your looking to heat and as much info on it i can point you in the right direction.

Any specific info you need ,I'll let you know and or I'll do my best to find out.

Daggoneit Spike, pay more attention to what's going on here, LOL. I thought you was boycotting my posts.

The house is big but fairly open I'll get some squares info and post,

tanks

 

[Booshcat]

OK EPA stove owners, fill me in

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I own one of the ghastly OWBs I read your threads and have a question, or two or three. As I understand the operation of your stoves they depend on a steady combustion air supply and secondary air to produce first high heat in the box then a separate flow of oxygen to the secondary chamber to burn off gasses and get "free" heat from that. Thus they get a lot of BTUs out of the wood and don't smoke, at at the least don't smoke as much as older designs. Is this right or am I missing something somewhere? Now I am not questioning anybody's integrity here but just asking. How can you be limited in the adjustment of your stove PLUS maintain some semblance of steady temps in the house? when outside temps, (at least during my heating season) vary from say 50 above to 10-20 below. In our old air tights we would have them shut up in the fall to keep house temps decent even before we had the Hi-ef houses of today. I just cant imagine these EPA stoves burning so hot to burn away gasses plus keeping the house at some steady temp? With my OWB and my old air tight add-on furnace I set the thermostat at X temp, right now 74, and thats my house temp and I burn zero gas. Do you guys have a lessor standard of "comfortable" than me, depend on back up heat and windows to even out the heat or what? Something just isn't adding up in my feeble brain. Thanks.

Sorry,
I made the mistake of reading your first post,( you know, the one without your "sis" and her woodstove needs) where you question the workings of EPA stoves and how people manage to control the heat output they produce, while extolling the virtues of your OWB.


So sorry if any offense was taken.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Sorry,
I made the mistake of reading your first post,( you know, the one without your "sis" and her woodstove needs) where you question the workings of EPA stoves and how people manage to control the heat output they produce, while extolling the virtues of your OWB.


So sorry if any offense was taken.

Ok, guess that makes sense. As with any heating system that can be controlled with a Honeywell my OWB heat is as steady as the devise controlling it. Thus my reference to it and should have known it would fan flames, my stupid. My sis is used to Honeywell comfort and is leery of loosing it.

 

[Big Woody]

EPA Stove

I have a Vermont Casting Defiant EPA stove 2002 model. For the milder temps I have to run it with the damper open (non-catalytic mode) and use the fresh air supply vent shut down to keep the fire from heating the house too much. This mode just kicks the smoke right out the chimney and it does give off more smoke. Also don't throw in much wood either.

The Catalytic mode requires the stove top to be 450-500 degrees or higher. Otherwise it produces too much smoke and overloads the combuster. When it is colder outside then the stove can run in this mode and stay between 500 - 750 degrees on the stove top thermostat. Still heats the house up pretty good.

With the catalytic combuster in use (damper shut), if the stove cools off to much, (say less than 500 degrees) the smoke accumulates and then the combuster initiates mini explosions inside the stove. Looking through the glass all of the sudden you will see a fireball and then nothing and then a fireball 30 sec. to a minute later. These mini explosions kick out some smoke around the seals of the openings which you can smell.

In the mornings when the fire is almost out and the temp. has dropped after burning all night in catalytic mode, it doesn't smoke too much since the wood is dwindling anyway. Hence no problems in that situation.

 

[ghitch75]

What kind of burn time do you all get?

i had an indoor stove for about 10 years before i started selling OWB and i would burn about a 30 gallon trash can of split oak in 24 hours and the place the stove was setting would have to be about 90 degress to keep the outer rooms at 70 degress and would have to load it every 6 hours and if i was at work for 8 to 10 hours and the temp in the house would fall to 70 and 50 in the outer rooms and then it would take about 2 hours to get it back to 90 and 70!!!...now with the OWB i put in can and a half and it goes for 18 to 24(depends on outdoor temp) and the whole house is 74 and plus heating the water too!

i know some of you will say b@##$$#t to 24 hour burn but if you install it right with good underground pipe(less heat loss from OWB) and the right controls any OWB can get 24 hour burn

btw this no sales pitch it's just how it works!

 

[MS-310]

i had an indoor stove for about 10 years before i started selling OWB and i would burn about a 30 gallon trash can of split oak in 24 hours and the place the stove was setting would have to be about 90 degress to keep the outer rooms at 70 degress and would have to load it every 6 hours and if i was at work for 8 to 10 hours and the temp in the house would fall to 70 and 50 in the outer rooms and then it would take about 2 hours to get it back to 90 and 70!!!...now with the OWB i put in can and a half and it goes for 18 to 24(depends on outdoor temp) and the whole house is 74 and plus heating the water too!

i know some of you will say b@##$$#t to 24 hour burn but if you install it right with good underground pipe(less heat loss from OWB) and the right controls any OWB can get 24 hour burn

btw this no sales pitch it's just how it works!

I do agree.

 

[ktm rider]

i know some of you will say b@##$$#t to 24 hour burn but if you install it right with good underground pipe(less heat loss from OWB) and the right controls any OWB can get 24 hour burn

btw this no sales pitch it's just how it works!

I would have to say you are correct that this is bull s**t.. I had one of these things and the pipes could not get any more insulated than the ones I had.( i can give you the specs on installation if you would like) it was only a 40 ft. run to my basement...

I was sick of the outragious claims so I fired up my OWB in the summer. I used ZERO heat for my house. circulated the water only and used super dry red oak and dry locust ( can't get any better than that ) and I got 17-18 hours THAT IS IT !! it was 75 degrees outside and 65 at night... and No it was not just the kind of OWB I had.
My 2 other friends that have two different models tried the exact same thing after i told them about my experiment a week later. They BOTH got about the same burn time as I did.

Sorrty I just don't belive your claim. I do believe that you are a dealer for them however..

 

[ktm rider]

i know some of you will say b@##$$#t to 24 hour burn but if you install it right with good underground pipe(less heat loss from OWB) and the right controls any OWB can get 24 hour burn

btw this no sales pitch it's just how it works!

I would have to say you are correct that this is bull s**t.. I had one of these things and the pipes could not get any more insulated than the ones I had.( i can give you the specs on installation if you would like) it was only a 40 ft. run to my basement...

I was sick of the outragious claims so I fired up my OWB in the summer. I used ZERO heat for my house. circulated the water only and used super dry red oak and dry locust ( can't get any better than that ) and I got 17-18 hours THAT IS IT !! it was 75 degrees outside and 65 at night... and No it was not just the kind of OWB I had.
My 2 other friends that have two different models tried the exact same thing after i told them about my experiment a week later. They BOTH got about the same burn time as I did.

Sorry I just don't belive your claim. I do believe that you are a dealer for them however..

 

[adkranger]

Off topic; I'm prolly stepping into a huge trap here, :taped: but ktm sure as heck does not speak for the performance of all, much less my OWB. I can achieve 18-24 hours of maintenance free domestic heat/hot water in typical Adk winter weather (lows 20s to below zero) using quality, seasoned NE hardwoods, NO B.S. In the fall/spring off heating seasons I can get up to as much as 48 hours of heat/hot H2O using the same quality hardwoods, (but usually use low quality soft maple, pine, poplar mixed with hardwood rounds in these seasons). I do realize these things are not the most efficient "combustors", but I do not buy, purchase a single stick of firewood (nor a drop of fuel oil in two years) and I get the added benefit of cleaning up my woodlots of undesireable bio mater(namely that dead/down pine that would normally be left to rot, promote insect infestation and raise wildfire fuel hazard). I am NOT a dealer, nor even an un-restrained supporter of OWBs in all situations/locations, but mine works perfectly for me in my current situation and will actually put money in my pocket next year according to my figures.:rockn:

On Topic; I've had two Catalytic woodstoves over the years and loved both for their performance in their intended purposes, both were Vermont Castings as I recall. There is a definite learning curve to operating them, especially for the new comers to wood fueled heating. There is fluctuation in domestic heat as with any inside wood burner, IMO it is mostly a function of stove size/output and square footage heated and it's weather tightness(or lack there of ) The better fit the stove is to it's domocile, the less ambient heat fluctuation. I also found that the quality of fuel wood was little more critical with my Cat stoves, used only the best hardwoods, of course being a treeguy at the time I could afford to be picky. I did notice the occaisional annoyance of a "puff" of smoke (unseen) from the gaskets on a long catalytic burn, probably the same phenomon as mentioned in a previous post about combustion explosions. Learning curve aside, if I wanted to install another wood burner someday, like to replace my backup Jotul gas stove, I wouldn't hesitate to get another Cat stove. Their inherent combustion efficiency far out wieghs the negatives, higher intial cost and operator learning curve. If sis can't stomach the Out burner, a cat stove will fit the bill, but she will not get our Honeywell heat for sure.

 

[ktm rider]

I would have to say " Prove it" Even the most efficient wood boilers. The tarm Gasifier and the AHS gasifier do not claim those kind of burn times. So, you are saying your OWB will out perform a gasifier? The boilers we tested in the summer months are the following, Pacific Western, Central Boiler and Mahoning. these are 3 of the most well known OWB's there are...

 

[adkranger]

First off, I don't have to prove anything. Second, I did not claim my burner "out performed" anything, YOUR WORDS. All I can say is right now I open the firebox door, stir the coals and fill with wood once a day, there were 24 hours a day last time I checked. Is it different in MD? If others do not get that kind of performance out of their OWBs, I am not in a position to speculate on brands, types, fuels, operators or whatever. I do know what I actually do every day and how my boiler performs, period.

I apologize to the rest for this off topic trend here, should have listened to that little voice in the back of my head, let it go......:bang: I really hate when someone infers that I am either a liar or makes up an argument that I did not even bring up, much less SAY. But rest assured I will not bring up the topic here again or respond to future trolling regardless of inferences made.

 

[ktm rider]

First off, I don't have to prove anything. Second, I did not claim my burner "out performed" anything, YOUR WORDS. All I can say is right now I open the firebox door, stir the coals and fill with wood once a day, there were 24 hours a day last time I checked.

AHS, Tarm and New Horizon wood gasifiers are much more efficient than any OWB made, period... They do not claim anywhere near a 24 hour burn times . You, however, claim 24 hour burn times ( Your words not mine)from you OWB. SO you ARE actually claiming your OWB has a longer burn time than any gasifier... I did not claim that , you did.

I think the inflated burn times that all OWB owners claim are a consequence of one of two things.
1. They use a secondary heat source in conjuntion with their OWB ( i.e. oil furnace as secondary ) and then claim that the OWB did all the heating
OR, and most likely:
2. Pride, They bought the dealers skillful sales pitch about burn time and how efficient this particular OWB is.( without doing their homework prior to purchase) Then, when they get it home and actually use it for a period of time they realize that it in fact, it does not have the outragious burn times and they were taken for $6,000+ and they do not want to admit that they were taken advantage of by a really good sales pitch...


OWB manufacturers can say what ever they wish about their product because they will not have their product EPA tested. And they WILL NOT have them tested because then they can not inflate thier burn times to unsuspecting buyers... Nor are they ASME code compliant.

read the second paragraph !!
http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outrickperth.htm

 

[ghitch75]

I would have to say you are correct that this is bull s**t.. I had one of these things and the pipes could not get any more insulated than the ones I had.( i can give you the specs on installation if you would like) it was only a 40 ft. run to my basement...

I was sick of the outragious claims so I fired up my OWB in the summer. I used ZERO heat for my house. circulated the water only and used super dry red oak and dry locust ( can't get any better than that ) and I got 17-18 hours THAT IS IT !! it was 75 degrees outside and 65 at night... and No it was not just the kind of OWB I had.
My 2 other friends that have two different models tried the exact same thing after i told them about my experiment a week later. They BOTH got about the same burn time as I did.

Sorry I just don't belive your claim. I do believe that you are a dealer for them however..

only thing i can tell you to do is to get in a plane or car and come and spend 24 hours with me and i'll show you

 

[MS-310]

only thing i can tell you to do is to get in a plane or car and come and spend 24 hours with me and i'll show you

Hay does KTM dude have any people in MI to go look at about 900 to 1050 OWB I Have been around to sell and put in. ( I only put in like 1/9 of thoes)

What type of stoves was it? What type of insulation? What is your house like? Im just saying you got screawed some how, I know for a fact there is a lot of people getting 24 hour burn time in lower MI when its a cold day/night.
Umm I dont get 24 hour when its very cold becuze of lots of stuff on my "home made stove" and my house, plus I dont need to do that anyways. and there is no point in filling it up all the way anyways. I think some thing was wroung some where.
Jack

 

[ktm rider]

Hay does KTM dude have any people in MI to go look at about 900 to 1050 OWB I Have been around to sell and put in. ( I only put in like 1/9 of thoes)

What type of stoves was it? What type of insulation? What is your house like? Im just saying you got screawed some how, I know for a fact there is a lot of people getting 24 hour burn time in lower MI when its a cold day/night.
Umm I dont get 24 hour when its very cold becuze of lots of stuff on my "home made stove" and my house, plus I dont need to do that anyways. and there is no point in filling it up all the way anyways. I think some thing was wroung some where.
Jack

I also thought I had something wrong with my OWB. That is why I did my test in the summer. AND had my friends to their test also. One of my buddies got a 20 hour burn BUT, that was with wood AND Coal...

FYI, my insulation was as follows. 1"AlumaPex pipe. wrapped in the foam pipe ( black insulation ) Then I wrapped it again with bubble wrap. I then wrapped the whole thing in R-13 house insulation ( the pink stuff ) then duct taped the H*ll out of it and stuffed that pipe inside a corrugated pipe. Dug my ditch and put sawdust and sand over and under this. ect... I made two of these setups, one for the inlet pipe and one for the outlet pipe.

I have new 3,500 sq. ft. log home, which are about 10-15% more efficient than a conventional stick built home. I even oversized my OWB to the 10,000 sq ft. boiler. I did this with the notion of heating my garage also. Which I didn't do.

Question: Why doesn't the OWB world state the BTU output of their OWB's

The bottom line is this, All together, along with owning my own OWB, I know 6 people that have OWB's and have asked every one of them what their burn times are and they NOT ONE said it was 24 hours or more...

My AHS Mulitfuel boiler that is in my garage so I don't freeze to death loading it, Out performs my old OWB hands down. It is BTU rated and ASME certified.
ALso, Out of those 6 people that I know who own OWB's, 2 of them have already sold theirs and one bought an AHS boiler and one Bought a indoor Royal boiler and they are both much happier with the performance. Two of the six have already had to have their OWB's welded in less than 6 years of service...

 

[Butch(OH)]

I also thought I had something wrong with my OWB. That is why I did my test in the summer. AND had my friends to their test also. One of my buddies got a 20 hour burn BUT, that was with wood AND Coal...

FYI, my insulation was as follows. 1"AlumaPex pipe. wrapped in the foam pipe ( black insulation ) Then I wrapped it again with bubble wrap. I then wrapped the whole thing in R-13 house insulation ( the pink stuff ) then duct taped the H*ll out of it and stuffed that pipe inside a corrugated pipe. Dug my ditch and put sawdust and sand over and under this. ect... I made two of these setups, one for the inlet pipe and one for the outlet pipe.

I have new 3,500 sq. ft. log home, which are about 10-15% more efficient than a conventional stick built home. I even oversized my OWB to the 10,000 sq ft. boiler. I did this with the notion of heating my garage also. Which I didn't do.

Question: Why doesn't the OWB world state the BTU output of their OWB's

The bottom line is this, All together, along with owning my own OWB, I know 6 people that have OWB's and have asked every one of them what their burn times are and they NOT ONE said it was 24 hours or more...

My AHS Mulitfuel boiler that is in my garage so I don't freeze to death loading it, Out performs my old OWB hands down. It is BTU rated and ASME certified.
ALso, Out of those 6 people that I know who own OWB's, 2 of them have already sold theirs and one bought an AHS boiler and one Bought a indoor Royal boiler and they are both much happier with the performance. Two of the six have already had to have their OWB's welded in less than 6 years of service...

Of course I would only be guessing why your boiler performed so poorly. I can only relay what mine does and guess about yours. When start up testing back in Sept and only heating my domestic water my Woodmaster 4400 would easily go 24 on an armload of wood, meaning a big armload and had enough coals to maintain temps and start the new load of fuel. Did this many days. Now that temps are 30s at night and 40-50 day time I fuel it with about half loads twice a day. I think full loads would make 24, I see no reason to try it just to brag but filling half the available space twice a day would seem to equate to full load once eh? This is heating my 1945 built 2000 (about) ft house and my 22x 24 shop plus domestic water. I can't tell you why OWBs are rated the way they are, the subject comes up in every discussion here. My best guess is that because they are mostly installed by home owners, not HVAC experts and the square ft deal is easier for the armchair heating experts to equate with?? Around here I have yet to run into an unsatisfied OWB owner save one who from the looks of the junk piled around his yard could screw up an anvil. Now I wont typewriter joust about this subject but you are welcome to stop by if your ever in C Ohio and can stay long enough to see what we put in it, all I can do.

 

[MS-310]

I also thought I had something wrong with my OWB. That is why I did my test in the summer. AND had my friends to their test also. One of my buddies got a 20 hour burn BUT, that was with wood AND Coal...

FYI, my insulation was as follows. 1"AlumaPex pipe. wrapped in the foam pipe ( black insulation ) Then I wrapped it again with bubble wrap. I then wrapped the whole thing in R-13 house insulation ( the pink stuff ) then duct taped the H*ll out of it and stuffed that pipe inside a corrugated pipe. Dug my ditch and put sawdust and sand over and under this. ect... I made two of these setups, one for the inlet pipe and one for the outlet pipe.

I have new 3,500 sq. ft. log home, which are about 10-15% more efficient than a conventional stick built home. I even oversized my OWB to the 10,000 sq ft. boiler. I did this with the notion of heating my garage also. Which I didn't do.

Question: Why doesn't the OWB world state the BTU output of their OWB's

The bottom line is this, All together, along with owning my own OWB, I know 6 people that have OWB's and have asked every one of them what their burn times are and they NOT ONE said it was 24 hours or more...

My AHS Mulitfuel boiler that is in my garage so I don't freeze to death loading it, Out performs my old OWB hands down. It is BTU rated and ASME certified.
ALso, Out of those 6 people that I know who own OWB's, 2 of them have already sold theirs and one bought an AHS boiler and one Bought a indoor Royal boiler and they are both much happier with the performance. Two of the six have already had to have their OWB's welded in less than 6 years of service...

Well I do see some things wroung about the insulation, Water is the biggest killer when dealing with underground pipe. duct tape doesnt work... dont get me wroung here not trying to tell you any thing im just wanting to know what the heck was going on. R valve makes very little sence when it is a conduction type heat your trying to hold, any ways some thig is not right. heating my hot water heater takes so little wood heat its not even funny, in the summer every 3 to 6 days I put very dry wood in... this one is weired I would like to have seen it.

 

[hbbyloggr]

Spec'd for the job

Purchasing an OWB , Empyre 450, was a decision we made based on need, longevity, and a willingness to try something new to provide our heating needs.

Being a firewood producer ( primarily) and tree service we get our fair share of unsaleable wood. Getting rid of the waste was becoming a problem and potential added expense. Not to mention, clogging the landfills with trash wood fiber.

The OWB has about solved that problem. While we acknowlege that they are not the most effecient burning system around however, the intention was to recover some of the BTU's available from the wood waste. This we have done.
Sometimes I wish it would gobble it up even faster.

We heat our home, hot water, shop ( 40x60) and we are in the process of setting up a reefer trailer to dry firewood.
It is not doing anything less than what we spec'd out originally. Do you homework before you buy one, because like anything else, they are not for everyone.

 

[DanMan1]

Well I do see some things wroung about the insulation, Water is the biggest killer when dealing with underground pipe. duct tape doesnt work... dont get me wroung here not trying to tell you any thing im just wanting to know what the heck was going on. R valve makes very little sence when it is a conduction type heat your trying to hold, any ways some thig is not right. heating my hot water heater takes so little wood heat its not even funny, in the summer every 3 to 6 days I put very dry wood in... this one is weired I would like to have seen it.

1) "R valve makes very little sence when it is a conduction type heat your trying to hold,"??? Please explain.

2) "in the summer every 3 to 6 days I put very dry wood in..." So..... you're saying in the summer you can let your boiler burn for 6 days, then feed it some more wood and all's well?