Old and New Growth wood,What makes it old and what makes it new?

[TreeGuyHR]

All this talk about old growth characteristics is I think a little off the point of the original question.
When you are talking about wood I think it would all come down to grain count. Finer grain wood is generally better so it follows old growth would be better the second growth.
Use to have something we called bastard growth which was basically some pretty nice sized timber but fast growing so coarse grain.

You are right. The only point to clarify is that "old-growth forest" has been defined as an ecological definition based on forest structure that develops over a few centuries. Therefore a single tree technically isn't "old-growth", because that is a forest stand definition. Now, there are plenty of big, old trees, that if growing in an old growth forest, would have that high value tight clear grain; big old (or small old) trees out in the open would have big knots and likely have wind-shake as well (heartwood cracks), and small trees, fast or slow growing, also grow in old-growth forests. Does that clarify it?

We have not figured out how to grow CVG conifer wood commercially, because it takes too much time. If you thin and prune a stand, you will get some clear wood, but because the trees are fast growing, proportionally more of the diameter is sapwood, and all the rings are wide. The wood will therefore have different properties, including density, color, smell, and stability when cut and dried. The reason old-growth wood (OK, wood from big old trees :msp_biggrin is and was so valuable was because it had the best wood properties of the species for our purposes.

There is a thriving "dis-assembly" industry, made up of many small-scale operators, who will take down your old barn, shed, mine props, RR trestle, or what have you for free in exchange for the wood, which is then re-sawed and made into furniture or beams for exposed beam construction. If you have priced a CVG beam or 3/4 plank lately, you will know why!

 

[madhatte]

Then there's late stem-exclusion stands, where the standing timber is all long-suppressed trees which haven't broken out of the canopy yet. The first 32' or more is very often CVG but the stems are no more than 30" diameter at the small end. I put up a sale like that awhile ago. Lots of peelers in there but no 1-S because everything was too small. Stand was ~100 years old, 2nd growth, on nasty rocky soil. However, the wood was pretty equivalent, structurally, to much older and larger timber. There are variations within variations.

 

[rwoods]

My friend owns a plot on a small lake here in NH that has a Black Gum tree the biologists say is well over 400 years old. Somewhere else, secret, there is a patch of true "old growth" forest here in NH that is supposed to be the same today as it was before the white man arrived...the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".

Bet I could find it in an hour or less using Google Earth. Same goes for the "secret groves" of Redwoods. Point is, "Old-Growth" is a human construct and not the result of natural processes.

Go ahead and try. I will be very surprised if you can differentiate it from the rest of the forests here.

Back in the late 70s, my parents and I "discovered" a small patch of hardwoods in the middle of nowhere that was as close in appearance to the Joyce Kilmore reserve as I have ever seen. The adrenaline boost kept my dad going for hours while I drove him from one scattered homestead to another until we found someone who knew about the plot. We finally hooked up with the owner and were told it had never been cut and each generation of the family had committed to "protect" it. Pop politely left them alone and we went on our way. With today's on-line information, I could have identified the owner in a few minutes. If the family has kept its commitment, I bet Madhatte could find it with his computer.

I should have asked Pop whether he wanted to cut the trees or just look at them. But I didn't. We had spent the morning walking over a clear cut (the first I had ever step foot upon). All Mom and I could see was desolation. Pop saw potential. He kept climbing and walking trying to see what was on the other side of the ridge as he said there would be better timber there, if it had not been logged in a while. It was too steep and long to the top so we loaded up in the car and headed out to find a road that would take us to the back side. That is what led to our discovery.

Ron

 

[056kid]

20 years in an inch vs 1 year in an inch. Growth rings that, is sound right?

 

[KiwiBro]

There is a thriving "dis-assembly" industry, made up of many small-scale operators, who will take down your old barn, shed, mine props, RR trestle, or what have you for free in exchange for the wood, which is then re-sawed and made into furniture or beams for exposed beam construction. If you have priced a CVG beam or 3/4 plank lately, you will know why!

They won't let me knock over most big old (think many, many hundreds of years) native trees here (and the eco-voices in my head drown out the day dreaming) so demolishing old houses in areas that used to have mills when previous generations launched into virgin forests is my next best option. Thus far it's yielded some of the best timbers I've ever worked with and it feels great giving that wood a second or third life.

 

[RandyMac]

I am a hard core salvager.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

I could post some pics of my neighbor's piles -- he has CVG Douglas-fir, western red cedar and redwood, as well as maple, oak all ricked up with some scrap roofing on the top. When he gets around to it, usually for a project, he planes some (after very carefully checking for metal!) and takes it inside to dry. I wish I could post some photos of his stuff, but that would probably be considered "advertising", maybe I'll posy a pic of the bench he made me:

View attachment 271839View attachment 271840

It's made from redwood and Alaska yellow cedar. about 8 ft. long. Indestructible -- you get some wine or beer stains on it, fine sand it and oil it, good as new. Due for another treatment after my Solstice party.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

I hope it stays hidden. Some glory seeking jackass like Sillet will put up road signs and post GPS co-ordinates to prove he "discovered" it.

Now now, RandyMac -- someone has to step forward and make Omni movies and get on the cover of National Geographic.
Kind of a mix of science and P.T. Barnum.:msp_biggrin:

 

[056kid]

I am a hard core salvager.

You ever eat at Reds Randy?

 

[Gologit]

Now now, RandyMac -- someone has to step forward and make Omni movies and get on the cover of National Geographic.
Kind of a mix of science and P.T. Barnum.:msp_biggrin:

You know Sillet? He's much more P.T. Barnum than he is about being a scientist.

A few years back he had a major climb scheduled but the media failed to show up. He cancelled the climb.

I always thought that discovery climbs and gathering data didn't take a back seat to how much ink and video they generate. Apparently he feels differently.

 

[RandyMac]

Yup, have eaten there, you can get deep fried anything, burgers aren't bad, a mite pricey.
The best burgers at at the Northwoods.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Sillet. I met him in either 1994 or 1999 for the first time. Yes, he rubs people the wrong way; I've heard this from couple sources. OTH, he has done some worthwhile research (read it) about the structure of OG redwood. The guy is not perfect, but you have to give him some credit. He did push through grad school and landed a job as a prof. I'm not going to badmouth him; I haven't personally had any bad experiences with him.

 

[LegDeLimber]

I have a friend who made his living in "architectural salvage"
and He also hit auctions of defunct businesses.
Got me a chance to see some things from an interesting perspective
that I never would have seen otherwise.
( this was all decade or more ago, before health took me out of things)
Saw one old warehouse dismantled for the heart pine and old bricks.
Saw semi trailers from several states away
being loaded with those beams
(18" thick ,all heart pine) you could smell that turpentiney aroma
from 3 blocks away, when the roofing was peeled off.
Most of the bricks went into an upscale (Harper's) restaurant.

Have spent a few good days cleaning lumber with him.
Still have an assortment of nippers, dykes, cats paws, asst prybars
and various punches
that I concave ground the tips for driving out broken bolts.
The ceramic wire tubes were always fun to chase down and knock out,
things will trash a band mill blade if you miss a piece.

interesting tidbit- this old steam powered bail press
was in that big warehouse,
It came awful close to being cut up for scrap.
If steel prices had been as high then, as they are in recent years,
it would likely have been a goner.
It's that big umbrella looking structure in the top center of this page.
Denton FarmPark NC demonstrations
When the crane crew started taking it down, a piece swung wrong
and they had to bring in another crane to get things unhung

P.S.
This is cool, map site. click just outside of the compass wheel
and you can rotate the map, works way smoother than other mapsites.
enter this url http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=35.236902&lon=-80.82447&z=17.7&r=37&src=yh
and you can see the spot
(roughly at the center + ) where that old press came from.

 

[paccity]

speaking on reclaim . now that the old Willamette mill that weyco auctioned off will never re open there is some big beautiful wood in there. the ironic thing is the outfit that got it is a salvage co. i would love some of that.

 

[056kid]

I agree on their prices, but it tasted pretty ok. I bought my 064 stihl from the pawn shop south a few minutes and ended up firing it up in that parking lot full of berry bushes behind reds there. I didn't know you lived right there,(maybe you dont) but had I, I would have stopped by for a drink.

 

[RandyMac]

I've moved twice since I took that photo. Let me know when you find your way West, we will tie one on, shoot pistols in the back yard.

 

[056kid]

10-4 Boss

 

[JOE.G]

Randy I have not seen A wagon like that in many years, that thing looks new from the pic's.

 

[RandyMac]

JoeG, we got a lot of use out of that wagon, it was an '85 LTDII. It blew both head gaskets and had holes in the block at 225,000 miles, pretty much a total. We paid a grand for it, put 60k on it.
This is our "new" wagon, a '68 Falcon with a 289.

 

[JOE.G]

The LTD I didn't like but the falcon is a sweet ride. Nice shape.