Ole rope needs some ideas

[ropensaddle]

Ok having read and researched and having the literature to fall back on I am about to try my hand at planting trees! I would like to know what is a fair price on the labor involved in doing so. I have not considered it but do have some customers that ask if I do it. I say yes and it is my usual 100 ph. I think I am too high don't seem to get any favorable replies. I want to help beautify my customers yards with great trees such as; saucer Magnolia and pin oaks and many great trees. Should since it will be little equipment hours do this type work a little cheaper to get my feet wet? I hate seeing the landscapers here do it because they always mound up the mulch against the bark and leave circling roots and all sorts of no,no's!

 

[Burvol]

Ok having read and researched and having the literature to fall back on I am about to try my hand at planting trees! I would like to know what is a fair price on the labor involved in doing so. I have not considered it but do have some customers that ask if I do it. I say yes and it is my usual 100 ph. I think I am too high don't seem to get any favorable replies. I want to help beautify my customers yards with great trees such as; saucer Magnolia and pin oaks and many great trees. Should since it will be little equipment hours do this type work a little cheaper to get my feet wet? I hate seeing the landscapers here do it because they always mound up the mulch against the bark and leave circling roots and all sorts of no,no's!

50hr by hand,
75-100 hr if by machine

 

[ropensaddle]

50hr by hand,
75-100 hr if by machine

Thanks I have planned using my stumper to create and feather the planting hole. Is that advisable, I would not think it would compact the hole but do plan to check infiltration rate and have soil tested at the customers cost, as well as; some charge for root stimulator and the like. Also do you guys who do this try to get some sort of on going care and establishment plan with a small charge for the service. I truly am a :newbie: in this arena but again am ready to start giving it a shot!

 

[BC WetCoast]

I would suggest you double the price of the plant stock and then use the same labour rate that you have for tree work. That would be your regular charge rate minus equipment costs.

The stumper doesn't create a good planting hole by itself, but it churns up the dirt nicely to make it easier to dig and gets rid of any roots. Stumpers are great for preparing soil trenches for hedges.

I wouldn't charge for root stimulator, just add it into your bid. It isn't expensive and may save you a call back should the tree fail.

Are your soils so variable that you need soil testing? I would suggest you talk to your local extension forester who can probably give you a good handle on the variety of soil types in your area, then develop a planting protocol for each soil type. Also talk to the various nursery reps. So, if you are in an area with eg silty/clay soils, dig all holes larger deeper, amend backfill with sand and topsoil and 2 parts magic pixy dust. The nursery reps, especially the ones from the large wholesale nurseries, as they deal with all the landscapers and find what problems/solutions are around. I think they would be a great resource as it is in their interest for you to succeed.

Which leads to the next issue, guarantees. Are you considering guaranteeing your trees? That could be a good selling feature, but you have issues with ensuring the tree gets sufficient and proper watering. Also check the nursery paperwork. The largest local wholesale nursery voids their tree stock warranty if your remove the burlap and/or wire cage from the trees, even though this goes against industry standards.

I'm not sure what you would be selling with a continuing care package. For the first year, as the tree gets established, all it really needs is proper watering. In the second year, maybe some light structural pruning and a little fertilizer. Would it be better to sell this as a call back the second year, or as a package the first year - don't know the answer. You'll have to figure that out for yourself.

Finally, after you've planted the tree, a doughnut of really nice white chips around the tree gives the HO the impression you've done a really good job.

Congrats on expanding your horizons, I think you will do well. Next you should consider some plant health care, such as fertilizing and pest management. If you want a niche, then consider pest management without chemicals.

 

[ropensaddle]

I would suggest you double the price of the plant stock and then use the same labour rate that you have for tree work. That would be your regular charge rate minus equipment costs.

The stumper doesn't create a good planting hole by itself, but it churns up the dirt nicely to make it easier to dig and gets rid of any roots. Stumpers are great for preparing soil trenches for hedges.

I wouldn't charge for root stimulator, just add it into your bid. It isn't expensive and may save you a call back should the tree fail.

Are your soils so variable that you need soil testing? I would suggest you talk to your local extension forester who can probably give you a good handle on the variety of soil types in your area, then develop a planting protocol for each soil type. Also talk to the various nursery reps. So, if you are in an area with eg silty/clay soils, dig all holes larger deeper, amend backfill with sand and topsoil and 2 parts magic pixy dust. The nursery reps, especially the ones from the large wholesale nurseries, as they deal with all the landscapers and find what problems/solutions are around. I think they would be a great resource as it is in their interest for you to succeed.

Which leads to the next issue, guarantees. Are you considering guaranteeing your trees? That could be a good selling feature, but you have issues with ensuring the tree gets sufficient and proper watering. Also check the nursery paperwork. The largest local wholesale nursery voids their tree stock warranty if your remove the burlap and/or wire cage from the trees, even though this goes against industry standards.

I'm not sure what you would be selling with a continuing care package. For the first year, as the tree gets established, all it really needs is proper watering. In the second year, maybe some light structural pruning and a little fertilizer. Would it be better to sell this as a call back the second year, or as a package the first year - don't know the answer. You'll have to figure that out for yourself.

Finally, after you've planted the tree, a doughnut of really nice white chips around the tree gives the HO the impression you've done a really good job.

Congrats on expanding your horizons, I think you will do well. Next you should consider some plant health care, such as fertilizing and pest management. If you want a niche, then consider pest management without chemicals.

Thanks that is the sorta stuff I was looking for. Yes we have all different kinds of soil and rocks if the site has not been top soiled during or shortly after construction. Yes structural pruning was what I was meaning and ipm as soon as I get licensed for that. Doughnut yes but what they all seem to do here is volcano I don't plan to do that. I will mulch ring a doughnut but ongoing care such as add mulch as tree grows area to be mulched should also grow right? That is depending on soil structure,infiltration rate and amount of water applied.

 

[rarefish383]

We did a little planting for regular customers, didn't advertise. Took time away from scheduled work. We had a pile of rotted, thick, black, wood chips. We'd take enough to line the hole with 3 or 4 inches of the rotted mulch, stake, and soak in the planting. Leave instructions with customer. Dad would swing by whenever he was in the area to check if the customer was following up with care. It only takes a couple seconds to drive by and look. If things don't look good it only takes a couple more minutes to stop and check it out. The customers like the "custom service" you show.

If we happened to be on a job and the customer asked us to plant a tree they had already purchased, we would run to the local hardware store and get a couple bags of Michigan Peat Moss and plant as usual. I don't remember a planting ever failing.

The area most of our work was in had pretty good soil and digging was easy. The stump grinder we had back then was a Vemeer MDL 10, which was a huge machine, so we never even thought about using it to prep a hole. Where I live now the ground is all shale, you can't stick an ice pick all the way in the ground, so I do use my little Vemeer 630 to prep holes, works well.

30 years ago we had so much work that getting into any lanscaping was counter productive. Nowadays it may help fill the gap. I can see it as a means to keep the less skilled guys busy. Or if your a climber/owner, a means to keep a cash flo going. Good luck, Joe.

 

[tree md]

Hey rope, I asked this same question about a year ago when I had to do some planting and was told by some of the experienced folks to charge about 2/3 more than what you pay for the tree. I followed that advice and made out pretty good.

 

[pdqdl]

A decent rule of thumb for our area is 3x cost. $100 wholesale tree cost is sold, delivered, installed, and guaranteed for $300. Or there-abouts, depending on how bad you want to sell the work.

Higher volume might equal discounts, tougher planting circumstances might mean more. $50 per man-hour to dig a hole? Not around here!

Don't fall into the trap of doing too many soil amendments. I have not seen benefits equal to the expense. You will get much better results from planting them well and handling the root ball gently until planting. Dig a much wider hole than necessary (3x root ball diameter), loosening the soil for rapid root growth.

Do NOT dig deeper than the root ball: this only causes post-plant settling, which allows the entire tree to settle below the grade that you properly planted it at. What? you are going to dig too deep, then compact the backfill to prevent settling? That doesn't sound bright, does it?

Here is the logic behind not amending the soil: the tree's root zone will be growing MUCH larger than the amended soil area. Doing a bunch of amendments generally installs a soil transition that may cause girdling roots, or just a delay in forming the penetrating roots necessary for good development. If the tree is going to have a 40' spread when mature, then it's roots will probably have more than that. Amending the first 1' of radius around the root ball is no guarantee of success.

Many years ago, my biggest customer had the state forester look at a large number of autumn purple ash that simply weren't growing. Installed for 15 years, they were little more than 15'-20' tall, thin, and unhealthy looking. He advised them to "fluff" the soil around the tree: stick a round point shovel in the ground (parallel to the radius) and wiggle it back and forth, loosening the soil in a 5' diameter circle. (This is not much different than the radial trenching sold nowadays). It took two men all summer long, but the trees took off, and began growing after they did the soil "fluffing". BTW, these trees were planted in very hard. compacted clay.

Moral of the story: loosen the soil, and let the tree grow into it.

 

[BC WetCoast]

A decent rule of thumb for our area is 3x cost. $100 wholesale tree cost is sold, delivered, installed, and guaranteed for $300. Or there-abouts, depending on how bad you want to sell the work.

Higher volume might equal discounts, tougher planting circumstances might mean more. $50 per man-hour to dig a hole? Not around here!

Don't fall into the trap of doing too many soil amendments. I have not seen benefits equal to the expense. You will get much better results from planting them well and handling the root ball gently until planting. Dig a much wider hole than necessary (3x root ball diameter), loosening the soil for rapid root growth.

Do NOT dig deeper than the root ball: this only causes post-plant settling, which allows the entire tree to settle below the grade that you properly planted it at. What? you are going to dig too deep, then compact the backfill to prevent settling? That doesn't sound bright, does it?

Here is the logic behind not amending the soil: the tree's root zone will be growing MUCH larger than the amended soil area. Doing a bunch of amendments generally installs a soil transition that may cause girdling roots, or just a delay in forming the penetrating roots necessary for good development. If the tree is going to have a 40' spread when mature, then it's roots will probably have more than that. Amending the first 1' of radius around the root ball is no guarantee of success.

Many years ago, my biggest customer had the state forester look at a large number of autumn purple ash that simply weren't growing. Installed for 15 years, they were little more than 15'-20' tall, thin, and unhealthy looking. He advised them to "fluff" the soil around the tree: stick a round point shovel in the ground (parallel to the radius) and wiggle it back and forth, loosening the soil in a 5' diameter circle. (This is not much different than the radial trenching sold nowadays). It took two men all summer long, but the trees took off, and began growing after they did the soil "fluffing". BTW, these trees were planted in very hard. compacted clay.

Moral of the story: loosen the soil, and let the tree grow into it.

I think the moral of the story is know your soils and make the appropriate treatments. In glacial/morainal soils around here, which are very coarse with little clay content, loosening the soil isn't really necessary, adding some organic matter to retain moisture is more productive. Also with the high rainfall, nitrogen tends to leach out, so a little slow release fert helps. But again, the moral, know your soils and do the appropriate treatments.

 

[rarefish383]

As has been mentioned, never plant deep. If anything go a little shallow. The top of the root ball should be a little higher than the surrounding ground level. This was the first pic I could find of my front yard. Not one single plant was put in the ground. There is so much rock and shale I gave up on digging holes. All of my plants are "Heeled in"(spelling). Years ago I sprayed the hill with Roundup, then covered it with the breathable landscaping paper. I would cut a hole in the material and set the plant on top of the ground. Then I mounded a mixture of topsoil and rotted chips around the plant. Since the soil drains so fast roots grow deep. I coverd the ground between all of the mounded plants with wood chips to make it look level. Over 25 years all of the rotted chips have made a layer of thick black soil. Now I can scoop out a hole about 10 inches deep before I hit the old layer of lanscaping paper, Joe.

 

[TreeTarget]

As has been mentioned, never plant deep. If anything go a little shallow. The top of the root ball should be a little higher than the surrounding ground level. This was the first pic I could find of my front yard. Not one single plant was put in the ground. There is so much rock and shale I gave up on digging holes. All of my plants are "Heeled in"(spelling). Years ago I sprayed the hill with Roundup, then covered it with the breathable landscaping paper. I would cut a hole in the material and set the plant on top of the ground. Then I mounded a mixture of topsoil and rotted chips around the plant. Since the soil drains so fast roots grow deep. I coverd the ground between all of the mounded plants with wood chips to make it look level. Over 25 years all of the rotted chips have made a layer of thick black soil. Now I can scoop out a hole about 10 inches deep before I hit the old layer of lanscaping paper, Joe.

I read alot on Mayan and Aztec agriculture awile back and that sounds similar to what they did for farmland...
The lands they cleared and utilized for farming were supposedly not fertile enough to support as large a population as the conquistidors encountered. Being rainforest, the soil was depleted after only a few seasons, and the thought was that the operation would be moved to another, recently cleared area...the old area left fallow for a few years, and then used again later...however...
The amount of cleared land for agriculture was still far lower than what the reported population would demand of it though, and it was unknown how they made up for the shortage...
Through further research, they found that the communities would indeed leave the fields fallow for a few years, but it is suggested that they did so AFTER they cleared the trees...they would then proceed to carry, haul and dump a combination of river and lake sediments, vegitable waste, assorted clays and soils from many locations into this newly cleared land. This would raise the land (which would be completed with irrigation and anti-erosion systems intigrated), and provide a renewable and dynamic soil for agricultural uses that did not rely on moving populations, clearing more forests and/or the problems associated with leaving large areas fallow for long periods of time.
WAY off topic, just liked the info on soil quality and have seen people transform alot of unuseable land into very nice gardens and yards. Getting ideas?

 

[Job Corps Tree]

Wach out for most nuserys around they cut off far to much of the Roots, have them above ground too long and make the rootballs too small. If you could dig your own you would do better or use a Tree Spade and than again with the Rocks??

 

[beastmaster]

Normally you shouldn't add amendments to the planting hole(Im sure theres exceptions)When you change the texture of the soil you also change its characteristics. This can create many problems. You now have dissimilar soils. Your planting hole can become a sink hole not draining and holding to much moisture not allowing for gas transfer,or allowing a foothold for bad pathogen to breed(This is especially true when you add organic matter to the planting hole.) Good for gardens,bad for trees.
I have used the la motte soil test kits to do basic soil tests with good results. It gives you an idea of what your working with and you can charge 80.00 or whatever for it. their 85% accurate compared to a laboratory test.(lab test are great when needed. they test for more issuers)
And don't forget to check your nursery stock. They have ansi standard they suppose to follow. Check for circling roots, root bound stock. Roots growing out the bottom, trees that have been headed back to improve there short term looks. good luck. Beastmaster