Optimal Bucking Software

[zkurtb]

Seems there ought to be some software to identify the optimal bucking of a bole, given all the variables of scale, mill prices, tree length and taper.

It would be great in the field, using a handheld or smartphone, to plug in species, bole length, and diameter at a few locations, then the software would use the scale table (Scribner in my area) and mill price data for all the length & diameter options to calculate the optimal lengths to buck for best compensation from the mill. Granted the result would have to be adjusted for defects, but would be useful nonetheless.

Does this stuff exist?

 

[Spotted Owl]

Yup. Use that smart phone to call the Boss and then buck how he says to. Only need to use the phone once and your done and good to go. If you are the Boss, use that smart phone and call the mill then buck how they want it. Then you done and back to work.

Or leave the smart phone in the truck and pack your gear and get to work the same way it's always done for the area your in.

Unless you are in some pretty odd ball stuff there won't be enough price difference to worry about. Standard bucking and maybe poles and that should be about it.



Owl

 

[slowp]

Spotted Owl is in the real world, and that's how it is done.

In the virtual world, Oregon State had a computer program in 1990.

 

[Gologit]

Spotted Owl said it right. If you're a faller the first piece of information you get on a job, other than your rate, is how they want everything bucked.

The price the mill is going to pay is already set before you cut the first tree.

And "bole" ? What's that?

 

[GASoline71]

One of these?

Gary

 

[Gologit]

Naaahhhh..I was thinking more about that game with the big heavy ball with the holes in it that you roll down a lane and knock over some wooden things while drinking large quantities of beer and wearing silly looking shoes and a polyester shirt with your name on it.

 

[RandyMac]

I have some bucking hardware.

 

[Spotted Owl]

I have some bucking hardware.

Be careful with that thing. A guy said one time if you spend to much time drive'in a beast like that, you will get iron molecules starting to attach to your testicles.

Maybe you might could use one of them lead X-Ray aprons, yup one of those and you could handle big yeller saws all day, if'in you was man enough. I don't think I would want to lug that around anymore than I absolutely had too.



Owl

 

[RandyMac]

Too late Spotty.

 

[northmanlogging]

always call the mill first... every one of em is a little different. and i thought a bole was another name for a burl those funny looking things that hang off a tree like warts? and wood carvers go all wiggeldy over em and make 'bowls' out of em, of which the mill want nothing of, but don't ask me I failed English

 

[hanniedog]

Shouldn't the ultimate software be located in the grey matter located between your ears.

 

[Rounder]

Seems there ought to be some software to identify the optimal bucking of a bole, given all the variables of scale, mill prices, tree length and taper.

It would be great in the field, using a handheld or smartphone, to plug in species, bole length, and diameter at a few locations, then the software would use the scale table (Scribner in my area) and mill price data for all the length & diameter options to calculate the optimal lengths to buck for best compensation from the mill. Granted the result would have to be adjusted for defects, but would be useful nonetheless.

Does this stuff exist?

My boss was telling me that something along those lines does exist in other countries, might have been NZ??

We're kind of behind the times around here in the US......Mill calls the big boss and changes log spec, he calls little boss and tells him, little boss doesn't tell us, and......., "Why the #### are you dumb ####s cutting those lenghths!? That changed a week ago!!

Where ever the hell the boss was talking about, within three days of a log spec change, they've got what they want rolling into the mill.....directly into the mill...no fooling around with a log yard.

 

[wowzers]

I second what Rounder said, sort sheets seem to change every other day.

 

[StihlKiwi]

My boss was telling me that something along those lines does exist in other countries, might have been NZ??

We're kind of behind the times around here in the US......Mill calls the big boss and changes log spec, he calls little boss and tells him, little boss doesn't tell us, and......., "Why the #### are you dumb ####s cutting those lenghths!? That changed a week ago!!

Where ever the hell the boss was talking about, within three days of a log spec change, they've got what they want rolling into the mill.....directly into the mill...no fooling around with a log yard.

A few years ago someone developed a set of 'smart' calipers for optimising stems, I can't remember the name of the tool right now though. I believe the logmaker had to walk each stem with the calipers, pushing the relevant button when knots, sweep or other defect was found, and the calipers could optimise the stem based on a set of grades and prices loaded onto them. I don't think it worked as well in practice as in theory, and value recovery wasn't as high as a well-trained logmaker with a tape and a piece of paper with a cutplan on it. Cutplans are usually revised once a week, or when demand for a particular grade increases

How many grades are typically cut in softwood operation in the states?

 

[Samlock]

Seems there ought to be some software to identify the optimal bucking of a bole, given all the variables of scale, mill prices, tree length and taper.

It would be great in the field, using a handheld or smartphone, to plug in species, bole length, and diameter at a few locations, then the software would use the scale table (Scribner in my area) and mill price data for all the length & diameter options to calculate the optimal lengths to buck for best compensation from the mill. Granted the result would have to be adjusted for defects, but would be useful nonetheless.

Does this stuff exist?

It does exist. Here the buyer gives you a list of desired lengths and diameters and percentages of each grade. The software is pretty simple, it's basically two matrixes, a value matrix and a distribution matrix. You can build the software at home using excel, if interested. Each cutter makes the bucking decisions in the brush. The harvester made bucking is software operated, but no, that wouldn't be practical for hand cutting. Just picture yourself stumbling in the slash, in rain or snow, eaten by them ##### bugs, a chainsaw in one hand and a smart phone in the other.

I just finished a job there was 6 lengths for pine saw logs alone to choose from, but that's no rocket science. With a little practice you'll eyeball quite accurately a bucking scenario before dropping. Tape measure is just giving it a courtesy sweep. And the distribution of lengths is a matter of enlightened guessing. Yes, once that Jack's head is a mesh, I think it makes a ware soft enough for optimized bucking.

 

[zkurtb]

And "bole" ? What's that?

Bole /bōl/ 1. The trunk of a tree

Use that smart phone to call the Boss and then buck how he says to.

Granted, the software is something more for the small forest owner that has the time, and wants to optimize compensation from the mill. Production loggers would use specs from the boss.

In the virtual world, Oregon State had a computer program in 1990.

I had seen reference to that poking around the internet. Couldn't find where it was available though.

It does exist. Here the buyer gives you a list of desired lengths and diameters and percentages of each grade. The software is pretty simple, it's basically two matrixes, a value matrix and a distribution matrix. You can build the software at home using excel, if interested.

If it exists I'd sure appreciate info on where to find it, I'm too lazy to write it.

If one were to tackle the job, yes, several matrices, one for each species price table, one for the Scale table (Scribner Decimal C here). Then enter species, bole length and sample diameters, say at 8' intervals. Software would have to run scenarios of different possible log lengths at various diameters calculated for scale and the price table, a rather dynamic process. I think it would take more than excel, at least for my excel skills.

This could possibly be simplified if a known taper factor by species for the locale could be used.

Shouldn't the ultimate software be located in the grey matter located between your ears.

Indeed it is. But then again there are tools for a reason, hence chainsaws vs handsaws.:msp_w00t:

Unless you are in some pretty odd ball stuff there won't be enough price difference to worry about. Standard bucking and maybe poles and that should be about it.

Here is a grey matter example analysis of a particular bole 63' long, 12" DBH, short logs. Options shown are 3x20'6 vs 3x16'6 + 1x12'6. Difference is $6.30 paid by the mill. Multiply that by 500 trees, it becomes significant.
Option 1: 61’6 = 3 x 20’6 @ $330; 20’6 x 11” = 80bf, 20’6 x 9” = 40bf, 20’6 x 6” = 20bf, TotBF=140 Tot$= 140*.33= $46.20
Option 2: 62’0 = 3 x 16’6 @ $310, 1 x 12’6 @ $290; 16’6 x 11” = 70bf, 16’6 x 10" = 60bf, 16’6 x 7.5" = 30bf, 12’6 x 6” = 10bf, TotBF=170 Tot$=160*.31 + 10*.29 = $52.50

If it takes 10 minutes to measure the tree and enter into the software, the return on time spent in the above case is $38 per hour. $75 if it takes 5 minutes.

 

[lmbrman]

The computer on most mechanical harvesters around here have software to read each log, the tree can be run thru once to read it, then a second time to buck it

If you are an independent logger balancing market decisions is a big part of making money, but if you are under contract to a mill, most of the product will go to their mill, although sometimes not, depending on markets. sometimes fewer decisions means more product on the landing, which is money in the pocket.

Mileage will vary:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Samlock]

If it exists I'd sure appreciate info on where to find it, I'm too lazy to write it.

If one were to tackle the job, yes, several matrices, one for each species price table, one for the Scale table (Scribner Decimal C here). Then enter species, bole length and sample diameters, say at 8' intervals. Software would have to run scenarios of different possible log lengths at various diameters calculated for scale and the price table, a rather dynamic process. I think it would take more than excel, at least for my excel skills.

This could possibly be simplified if a known taper factor by species for the locale could be used.

Well, the software here doesn't take sample diameters, but predicts the length and diameters on each theoretical points by modeling. Variables are tree species and diameter of the first log. I've got the modeling functions somewhere, but they only work with the local species here in Finland.

You caught me red handed. It's been years I've done matrices, and that was just a practice task. And I hated it. Sorry.

All in all. In reality computer operated bucking produces a bit worse result for the landowner in terms of saw log/pulp/leftover ratio. That's because the machine applies modeling. Knots, curves and other defects are always surprises. The machines just do it faster, but they're not as accurate as an experienced eye.

Option 1: 61’6 = 3 x 20’6 @ $330; 20’6 x 11” = 80bf, 20’6 x 9” = 40bf, 20’6 x 6” = 20bf, TotBF=140 Tot$= 140*.33= $46.20
Option 2: 62’0 = 3 x 16’6 @ $310, 1 x 12’6 @ $290; 16’6 x 11” = 70bf, 16’6 x 10" = 60bf, 16’6 x 7.5" = 30bf, 12’6 x 6” = 10bf, TotBF=170 Tot$=160*.31 + 10*.29 = $52.50

Once you memorize the measures, that's the kind of optimizing you'll learn to calculate in your head. And learn to see it while it's still standing.

 

[Gologit]

I can see where the OP's idea would have merit. It might useful in multi species harvest where the grade/sort was really complicated. Some of the East coast boys might really like a program like that. Having five or six or more different species with several sorts for each must get aggravating.

I don't see where the type of work I usually do would benefit from the unnecessary complication involved. The mills call the shots and we respond accordingly. The spec changes are usually market driven but that's not something that we concern ourselves with in the woods. Nor should we have to.

Rounder was right about the lag time in getting the word to the woods crew. That happens. We see a whole day delay occasionally but they usually get the word to us pretty fast. They need to.

We can always tell how serious a situation is and how important the news is by watching how fast the forester or the side rod is driving and how far he's hunched over the steering wheel and how hard he slams the door when he gets out. :msp_rolleyes:

 

[zkurtb]

If you are an independent logger balancing market decisions is a big part of making money

I can see where the OP's idea would have merit. It might useful in multi species harvest where the grade/sort was really complicated.

A bit more background on the motivation. It may not apply to some markets or mill arrangements, but could benefit the independent operator. Here in north Idaho, there are 10 or so primary species of conifer. Each local mill has different prices by species and by delivered log length. Even picking one mill for all logs, there will be different prices by species and length. Then there is the interplay of scaling volume and prices and lengths, especially in the smaller 6-10" diameters. My above example analysis shows just a glimmer of this.

Well, the software here doesn't take sample diameters, but predicts the length and diameters on each theoretical points by modeling. Variables are tree species and diameter of the first log.

The software should be able to work using known taper rates and bark thickness (from sampling) for species within a locale. And I'd agree the total length to minimum SED (small end inside bark diameter, 5.6" here) should also be predictable. Given that, one probably only needs to plug in species and DBH (diameter at 4.5 feet, or 1.4 meters). Since it couldn't incorporate defects, it's results would be a suggestion, not be a substitute for the experienced eye.

Some rainy day, maybe...