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heviarti

ArboristSite Operative
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someone was talking about pamphlets on tree climbing minus spikes, and trimming in a way that does not equal butchery.. where do i get those? I'd kind of like to give some to the other tree services in town.

I'll snap some pics of some maples they screwed up.... *BAD*
 
the site recommends against topping... we currently have a sycamore that is rotted in two feet just below the top... Neither of us see any recourse but to remove the rotted top..

In other news i've been considering trying japanese spikes in favor of the standard side of the boot spikes, as they tend to tire the leg more..

has anyone tried japanese spikes or "aishiko"?
 
I think your best bet would be to read up on some tree biology. Books by Dr. Alex Shigo are the way to go - try Modern Tree Biology. It's available from ISA's website as well.
 
i was thinking that if like ISA or someone had short modules for schools to plug in to other studies (biology,"

KC, the ISA has been moving in that direction. they put out a cd on biology (I have a demo version I'll try to load), and have a cd on pruning and one on safety in production. I got a peek at those two; they would serve the middle-high school demographic, which is a good level to reach the general public at, too, right?

Nickrosis, I think you mean A New Tree Biology, right? Anyway that's way beyond what needs to go to the public.

the treesaregood brochures are the way to go, bitesized and only $.20. For your situation, look at these:

http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/mature_care.asp where it corectly says: " tree removal is a last resort" ;) , and

http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/pruning_mature.asp where it says "Avoid using the services of any tree company that:
- Advertises topping as a service provided. Knowledgeable arborists know that topping is harmful to trees and is not an accepted practice.
- Uses tree climbing spikes to climb trees that are being pruned. Climbing spikes can damage trees, and their use should be limited to trees that are being removed.", and
" Reducing the height or spread of a tree is best accomplished by pruning back the leaders and branch terminals to lateral branches that are large enough to assume the terminal roles . Compared to topping, this helps maintain the form and structural integrity of the tree."

I hope this resolves the issue of reducing the decayed sycamore top. (To figure out how much decay is safe to leave, post a picture here.) Reduction cuts are necessary in many situations, but the ISA and the rest of the industry has been (and unfortunately still is)so focused on an anti-topping campaign that the simple act of shortening a limb is viewed with :eek:horror by a few otherwise knowledgeable people.

For $64. you can buy 100 each of the above 2 brochures and the ANSI pruning standards and the ISA Pruning Best Management Practices books. these will arm you to reach out and change things in your area.:blob2:
 
i'm planning a no spike section on mytreelessons site

i've changed a lot of customers minds about topping etc.; by showing them free Sherrill sticker on truck; telling them that they give it out for free because of the devastation, check any other authority etc. Easy lead in to about the ISA etc. and no topping.

i have long thought there should be a similar no spiking sticker. i think we give extra value with these different efforts and strategies to achieve no spiking climbing. i think a similar proffessional sticker would help make a similar point and immediately give more credence to your words. Also, i would think it could possibly give Sherrill non-spiking customers an economic lead; by giving more value to the work they do!

Mostly, for customer contact, the spiking issue to me seems placed as afterthought; when should be blared loudly. Heck, if they want to make an intelligent decision, what other quicker way is there to thin the herd of climbers?

:alien:
 
Guy, I was confusing a New Tree Biology with Modern Arboriculture. Both are good buys. I was responding to heviarti's comment about topping, not his first comment. For an arborist, Shigo's books should not be too deep at all.
 
Originally posted by Nickrosis
For an arborist, Shigo's books should not be too deep at all.
Nick, not all arborists just spent 4 years in college. I've been rereading Shigo for 20 years and parts are still too deep for me :blush:
For the same money an arborist can get 300 brochures. It is a far more practical investment to first educate customers who then will avoid hacks and hire a good arborist instead. ;)

Many arborists with less experience--ones who are concerned about reduction cuts because they have heard that topping is wrong, for instance--are a whole lot better off mastering the customer-oriented material and THEN get the background and be imbued with Shigovian philosophy.

"what other quicker way is there to thin the herd of climbers?"

I like to use a highlighter on certain phrases in the brochures, like "don't spike", "mulch is effective", etc. Make the info bite-sized for the busy client, most of whom would rather pay someone they can trust :angel: than go to tree school themselves.
 
I know what you mean, but I know that many books are read at different levels. You can read a book once and get "x" out of it. Then you read it again and get "x+y" out of it. You keep going and re-reading it as your understanding grows and perspective changes. I was reading Shigo's books as a kid in elementary school! I know I was getting something different out of them then than I am now. And surely I'll grasp more of it in the future.

Just an analogy, I love to play the piano - I've played for 14 years. I can play easy songs over and over again, but if I dig into more difficult songs by Mozart or Beethoven, I'm challenged by them. No, it's not beautiful music the first 100 times, but eventually, I get the theme and the trills and work it into a masterpiece when it's memorized. That's how I see learning in many aspects, and I would advise to anyone to jump into challenging tree biology materials and never look back.
 
Originally posted by Nickrosis
I would advise to anyone to jump into challenging tree biology materials and never look back.
Oh yeah, absolutely. Right now I'm liking Abiotic Disorders:
https://secure.isa-arbor.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4049

It has some things that are more California issues than NC issues, but most of it applies everywhere.
And I'm taking a 4th stab at Fungal Strategies; there's a lot in there I don't fully understand yet. It's like I got the a thru f but I'm a long ways from z.

Still, for a young company that needs to separate themselves from hackers in the eyes of their community, the pamphlets are the best first investment.
 
Nick, the linked "<a href="https://secure.isa-arbor.com/comersus/store/comersus_message.asp?message=The+item+does+not+exist%2E" target="_blank">item does not exist</a>"...

I don't play the piano, but am a fan of Mozart and Beethoven stuff when it's played on originals or copies of the instruments the music was written for.&nbsp; A piano with a wooden frame with strings all stretched parallel like as if it were a harpsichord with a hammer mechanism installed instead of a plucking mechanism sounds (and plays, so I've read) markedly different from a modern monstrosity.&nbsp; Are you familiar with the concept of playing music in the style and on instruments of the period in which it was written?&nbsp; A lot of Mozart's stuff doesn't even make sense when played modernly on modern instruments.

Glen
 
I always check links...and you apparently needed a cookie.

Anyways, I was saying that I'm six feet away from one of these:
15734.jpg
 
There are only three tree services in town.. i don't need 100 of each. each tree service other than ours likely only has one employee that can read. not to be a jerk, but i'm not in the smartest part of the country... and the other services are... less than professional.

The sycamore is prolly going to have to have the top taken off 6 inches below the end of the rotted hollow.. there's prolly 8-10 feet of tree above the rot, and it's just asking to come down on the house next to it. Other than that bit of rot, they are really well managed sycamores. They stand 60 feet straight in the air.. no schoolmarms. luckily only the one needs topped.

The ISA site isn't what I'd call the easiest thing in the world to navigate (you'd figure they'd have the contents of their pamphlets on the site...)
 
There are only three tree services in town.. i don't need 100 of each."

Well then you'll have 97 left for Consumers. (tree owners). That's why it's called Consumer Tree Care information.:rolleyes: That's why I said "practical investment to first educate customers who then will avoid hacks and hire a good arborist instead." That $.22 helps me get a lot of jobs, and turns price-shoppers into quality-grabbers.:(

Nick I have their cookie, but I got the same msg as glen.

You can also contact the US Forest Service in Moscow. They may even have some free info you can hand out. Put your tax dollars to work.

"The sycamore is prolly going to have to have the top taken off 6 inches below the end of the rotted hollow.. there's prolly 8-10 feet of tree above the rot, and it's just asking to come down on the house next to it."

Are you sure that removing the entire decayed portion is necessary?
What % of sound wood is still there? If > 1/3, it may be enough.
Will you be making a new wound that will just start decaying all over again?
How many branches are attached to the hollowed portion?
Will removing them make the tree structurally safer, or not?

If drop-crotching exposes the remaining branches to more stress and strain, how is the tree safer than if heading cuts were made? The damping effect of limbs, for years thickened by torque, is altered while other branches thicken under the new load. The tree is vulnerable to disintegration while new reaction wood is formed in response to the new stresses. As Dr. Karl Niklas notes in the Tree Structure and Mechanics Proceedings, “When exposed by the removal of neighboring stems, previously sheltered and mechanically reliable body parts may deform or break even under wind conditions that are ‘normal’.”

Avoiding decay is another good reason to make nodal cuts just below the storm-caused wounds. Large wounds on trunks are unlikely to close before they start cracking and become what Schwarze, Engels and Mattheck refer to in Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees as “motorways for decay-causing fungi and bacteria racing into the heart of the tree.” Our strategy must be to minimize the infection courts we create. Retaining branches that Nature topped also avoids sun injury, defined by Shigo in ANTB Dictionary as “…when trees are suddenly exposed to direct sunlight…The bark cambium is affected and the outer bark plates are flattened”. These injuries are slow to seal because the tree’s interior bark is very thin, and the sun dries the tissue at the edge. Big pruning cuts and sun-damaged bark may never seal.


Sometimes leaving part of a decayed portion can leave intact boundaries that the tree spent a lot of energy to make, and prevent the tree from making new ones.

"luckily only the one needs topped."

What you are considering is NOT topping, it is crown cleaning.
 
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