I was wondering how the panther mill compares to the granberg Alaskan mill. I am looking at getting one or the other. Two issues I am concerned about are the weight of the steel compared to aluminum and setting the height of the cut. The price and that I can weld up a larger bracket for larger logs are some of the positives. I have heard that the weight of the steel balances out the weight of a larger power head better. Let me know what you guys like or dislike about the two.
Panther mill II
- Thread starter Njwoodsman
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kpantherpro
PantherprosLLC
Hi I wanted to respond to a couple of things, what might have been causing the weird cuts is you have the skid rail or H-shaped rail upside down, did you weld the new cross piece on the same time you made the other modification? This will start the bar cutting at an angle to the log, I have never heard of the problem otherwise from my mills, especially if all the bolts are tightened securely. But your mods are sound for what you are doing, others may make mods for what suits them. Mine are usually known for cut quality, accuracy and affordability, for a double clamp mill it is about the cheapest you can get. Our thinking as far as the paint was we we're already so far behind, and the paint wears after a brief period anyway as it does have moving parts and basically skids along the log. Most if they choose just use a .99 cent spray can and are good for awhile, as stated. Pantherpros colors are grey and blue, we have never used primer for a finish coat, but as with anything some paint may yield different finishes then expected, we have now found a consistent finish and are planning on staying with it as it also seems fairly durable. As Far as the difference between steel and aluminum, myself and many others prefer steel to aluminum, it seems to provide a more accurate cut as well as less vibration, which will also result in less waste and wandering. Someone mentioned putting cross brace at the skid bar as well so that it won't slip off the end of the log, that is what the small grey piece is in the H-shaped skid bar. If it still slips on and off the log try entering or exiting your cut at a slight angle so the cross brace is on the log, remember these mills are fully adjustable so I have to be careful where I mount the cross brace and have placed it where I feel it is most useful to everyone who uses one of my mills. I hope this helps answer some questions. To all of you I wish you the happiest of holidays and happy milling as well.
Daveman
ArboristSite Lurker
You make a good mill- just needs some locking nuts to keep the bolts from working loose. Not an issue with a 90 cc powerhead, but with an old heavy powerhead (like 075/76 or 880) the bolts will allow the mill to slide w/o cross stops. It happened with mine and a friend's Panther mill also. Using 066 or 660 no sliding. Anything bigger let the bar adjustment slip (even tightening to point of bending the steel). If using an 066/660 or smaller powerhead- the stock setup is fine.
I put the cross bar closer to the powerhead as that made the most sense in light of a heavy and/or vibe-Ey powerhead (075/76/088/880).
Before depth adjustment mods I cut uneven trapezoids - after mods it cuts great and is a pleasure to use.
Once again- you make a good mill and I fully understand that at the price point you are limited as to extras- no complaints and I would purchase and/ or recommend the PM.
Wheels and a cross bar in the middle will make the mill both easier to use and more accurate ( at least for me and my friend who has one also).
Thanks for making an affordable mill of good basic design- much appreciated.
I put the cross bar closer to the powerhead as that made the most sense in light of a heavy and/or vibe-Ey powerhead (075/76/088/880).
Before depth adjustment mods I cut uneven trapezoids - after mods it cuts great and is a pleasure to use.
Once again- you make a good mill and I fully understand that at the price point you are limited as to extras- no complaints and I would purchase and/ or recommend the PM.
Wheels and a cross bar in the middle will make the mill both easier to use and more accurate ( at least for me and my friend who has one also).
Thanks for making an affordable mill of good basic design- much appreciated.
I just saw your post about your wheels.
I tried using wheels on the mill frame but I didn't like the way it caused the mill to rack and the way the wheels applied too much pressure to the side of the log rails.
To eliminate racking on the mill frame, the best location for wheels is in the same plane as the bar.
This means the reaction force to the cutting chain is in the same line of action as the wheels and this prevents racking.
Racking will happen on any mill and I see it happening even on my small all steel mill using the 441.
Long terms even if doesn't look or feel like the mill is racking, wheel location out of the plane of the bar will contribute to bar groove wear and chain drive link wear.
The other problem wheels (even if they are located in the the plane of the bar) is that the wheels will sometimes ride up or down the curved sides of the log
This problem is worse when the bark grain ridges assists the rise or fall of the wheel.
I tried to solve this problem on the BIL mill but using 2 sets of wheels above the bar and 2 sets below the bar.
When cutting the top half of the log (see A below) the best place to reduce the "wheel riding up the log effect" is to locate the wheels as far down on the flat side of the log as possible,
So this is where I placed a set of wheels - see the black lower wheel.
When cutting the bottom part of the log (C) the upper or white wheels help with this cut.
The smoothest/best cuts happened when the widest cuts are being made in the middle of the log (B)
On my small steel mill I use a single pair of wheels that can easily be adjusted and even flipped over so they are either above, in, or below the plane of the bar..
These work really well. I also have a longer set of shafts than be used for bigger logs.
I tried using wheels on the mill frame but I didn't like the way it caused the mill to rack and the way the wheels applied too much pressure to the side of the log rails.
To eliminate racking on the mill frame, the best location for wheels is in the same plane as the bar.
This means the reaction force to the cutting chain is in the same line of action as the wheels and this prevents racking.
Racking will happen on any mill and I see it happening even on my small all steel mill using the 441.
Long terms even if doesn't look or feel like the mill is racking, wheel location out of the plane of the bar will contribute to bar groove wear and chain drive link wear.
The other problem wheels (even if they are located in the the plane of the bar) is that the wheels will sometimes ride up or down the curved sides of the log
This problem is worse when the bark grain ridges assists the rise or fall of the wheel.
I tried to solve this problem on the BIL mill but using 2 sets of wheels above the bar and 2 sets below the bar.
When cutting the top half of the log (see A below) the best place to reduce the "wheel riding up the log effect" is to locate the wheels as far down on the flat side of the log as possible,
So this is where I placed a set of wheels - see the black lower wheel.
When cutting the bottom part of the log (C) the upper or white wheels help with this cut.
The smoothest/best cuts happened when the widest cuts are being made in the middle of the log (B)
On my small steel mill I use a single pair of wheels that can easily be adjusted and even flipped over so they are either above, in, or below the plane of the bar..
These work really well. I also have a longer set of shafts than be used for bigger logs.
Daveman
ArboristSite Lurker
Bobl -Thanks for your suggestions and clarification - much appreciated.
I found wheels work well if I use rails for each cut or freehand rip the edge of the log to provide a face for the wheel to ride on. I also found that wheels with a parabolic profile worked better than "flat" profile wheels( middle of wheel is higher than the edges)
I had not tried adjusting the plane of travel above or below the bar. I will certainly experiment with that- insightful food for thought/ practice.
Thanks again for both your wisdom and insight - my milling ability increased dramatically as a result of reading and implementing ideas from many of your posts - especially using raker angle not depth.
Cheers and best regards
Dave
I found wheels work well if I use rails for each cut or freehand rip the edge of the log to provide a face for the wheel to ride on. I also found that wheels with a parabolic profile worked better than "flat" profile wheels( middle of wheel is higher than the edges)
I had not tried adjusting the plane of travel above or below the bar. I will certainly experiment with that- insightful food for thought/ practice.
Thanks again for both your wisdom and insight - my milling ability increased dramatically as a result of reading and implementing ideas from many of your posts - especially using raker angle not depth.
Cheers and best regards
Dave
kpantherpro
PantherprosLLC
Bob great input thank you, and Dave it really appreciate the kind words, thank you so much for that. But I did get to thinking about your trapezoidal problem, after all it is the first I've heard about it and I use a 3120 and have never seen that problem, so I started thinking what would cause that, and here's what I came up with. Hopefully this picture will upload and you'll see what I'm talking about a little more clearly. Since I use grade 8 bolts on these mills they are very hard and in the machining process when they thread these it may leave ridges as hopefully shown on the left bolt in the picture. Now what can happen and usually it only happens until the bolt is tightened and retightened after making a few depth adjustments until it mushrooms/flattens out, is the thread will actually try to move the bar clamp/ height adjustment leg up and down as your trying to tighten it and may even mushroom from the pressure as your using the mill, which can also cause movement, as technically it's loosening up slightly. We do try and catch these bolts and clean them up as we assemble them if necessary, but what others can do if your having the same problem is grind the end of the bolt into a slight convex point as shown on the bolt to the right,(about 30 seconds on a grinder)this should eliminate any movement or funky cutting, by creating a better bite.
kpantherpro
PantherprosLLC
You may want to think about that as something you do automatically when building these, its a fairly common machining operation to round the point on a bolt like this to make it bite better. Or at least put it in the documentation you send with the mill, or a faq on your site.photo didn't upload, let me try again
I just ordered one of your mills last night I had been thinking about a mill seriously for the last month or so and leaning toward a 180+ dollar granberg "me and my father had been thinking about getting a mill for the past 15-20 years, he died before he ever had the chance" Anyhow I just wanted to chime in and say after reading the first post in this thread I was ready to cancel my order. But after continuing to read my mind slowly changed, its great to see that you are an active member here and are responding to issues with your mill.
Normally I do a lot of research before ordering anything, in this case I just saw about your mill yesterday on another thread on this site a guy said he loved his and it was the first time I had heard of one. So I did a quick youtube search for reviews and came across this. after watching him use the mill and better yet seeing what this guy does "makes super high end furniture" I was fairly sold on your mill. I am going to do some more research today and read what others have said about your mill but I am pretty confident I made the right choice by going with a panther at this point.
Heck I don't even have a powerhead to run it yet, unless I could strap my ms 170 in there to cut some pine just to try it, which I kind of doubt I know on the granbergs your bar needs to be at least I think it was 2.5" wide I assume yours is similar otherwise the clamping will dmg the bar. I have a lot of black ash on my property so I want to get a fairly good cc powerhead but I am going to be under 24" max and probably will only need to run a 20" bar the biggest log I have cut on my property is 17"-18" across and I don't think there anything much bigger left out there "I have 43 acres in northern MN"
notomo, welcome to the site. One of the first things you need to learn is DON'T mill on your hands and knees like that video. Get one end of the log up in the air so gravity does most of the work, your back and knees will thank you, Joe.
kpantherpro
PantherprosLLC
Notomo thank you for the kind words and welcome as well, I've been a little busy as of late so sometimes I do fall behind in keeping up on these threads, but I do appreciate the kind words, yes he does a great video but rarefish is right get off the ground, you will wreck your back really quickly milling like that, waist height ideal for me and it's nice because I'm not leaning on the mill so it gives me the chance to comfortably change my handholds frequently which is a huge positive when milling, also you will be able to use your waist to keep the mill going as you place your shims while milling so your cuts will be better, less stop/start marks, all in all though that was a great and very informative video I thank Mathew for making it, I had no idea until I saw it on the web a few days back. Just one other thing I saw regarding the life of your saw always run it rich and let the saw warm up before starting to mill and let it cool down and idle for a bit before shutting it off after milling. I've been doing this with all my saws and have experienced minimal if any issues with my saws. Nice 1911 by the way. Well everyone I hope you all enjoy this weekend and be safe.
Yup I have no intention of milling on the ground I have bad knees as it is. I have been reading quite a bit and figure to start I want to try the gravity method and if I don't like that I may try throwing a crank on the mill nice thing is I have a tractor available and should be able to bring the logs to me and set them up however I want pretty easily. I built that 1911 when I was going to Pine Tech for Gunsmithing every single piece on it is hand fitted. I am still doing gunsmithing but like to do a bit of everything and right now I have a real urge to work with some wood, there is something about wood grain that has always felt good hard to explain it. Anyhow I have a bunch of bigger logs around the house lately from cutting my property lines for fencing and I hate to just cut them into firewood it seems like a horrible waste.
I found plans the other day on how to make a really simple solar kiln for drying wood that one of the colleges designed that I may build this summer if get some milling done.
I found plans the other day on how to make a really simple solar kiln for drying wood that one of the colleges designed that I may build this summer if get some milling done.
BigOakAdot
ArboristSite newb
Sorry to bring up an old post but you definitely need to drill holes to set the depth. My buddy is using the mill we just bought and it was sliding in him. Good thing it wasn't a walnut lol.
As you can see it's not staying put. Not gonna lie I'm a little annoyed about the whole Panther mill experience. When I ordered the mill Kim was telling me how superior their product was and it's far from the truth. Grandberg makes a way better built and more reliable product.
It's obviously more affordable than the large grandberg, but you get what you pay for. I'm going to use your pointers and drill some holes for pre set thicknesses.
As you can see it's not staying put. Not gonna lie I'm a little annoyed about the whole Panther mill experience. When I ordered the mill Kim was telling me how superior their product was and it's far from the truth. Grandberg makes a way better built and more reliable product.
It's obviously more affordable than the large grandberg, but you get what you pay for. I'm going to use your pointers and drill some holes for pre set thicknesses.
The photo above is a common problem and shows why thin wall tubing or almost any tubing direct clamped by a bolt is a poor design choice for a CSM.
This is exactly what has happened on my small CSM
Some ways around that are for those making there own mills are
- predrilled holes - limits degree of adjustment possible
- solid bar uprights e.g. David Lindsays mill,
- engineer a setup that puts pressure on a hardened steel plate that spreads the pressure over a wider area,
- use round tube and then use a tube clamp that compresses the whole tube. The BIL mill uses 3 mm thick Al tube and such a clamping mechanism and it works very well.
Round tube is very strong under all round compression.
This is exactly what has happened on my small CSM
Some ways around that are for those making there own mills are
- predrilled holes - limits degree of adjustment possible
- solid bar uprights e.g. David Lindsays mill,
- engineer a setup that puts pressure on a hardened steel plate that spreads the pressure over a wider area,
- use round tube and then use a tube clamp that compresses the whole tube. The BIL mill uses 3 mm thick Al tube and such a clamping mechanism and it works very well.
Round tube is very strong under all round compression.
I have been approached by a number of people asking me if I would build them one, but like many things I design and build, the thought only lasts for about 5 seconds.
I have some good ideas.
I'm somewhat less successful at making things that work like exactly like I imagined they would - the BIL mill is one of the few ideas I've had that works better than I first imagined.
Usually I can make 2-3-4 iterations of the same thing to improve designs etc
However, at production I am rubbish, I get bored too quickly and the quality of my output deteriorates.
Where I really fall down and want to keep away from BIG time is after sales support, and whining complaining customers is the very last thing I want to deal with in retirement. I dealt with enough with whining complaining clients in my working life.
A couple of years ago I had a job welding up some 24, 2ft long, identical steel stirrups for nature playground equipment.
The first couple were fun, the next few were OK, and then it was just downhill from there - I really had to concentrate to finish what was really a trivial job.
I have never run a business but I watched others mostly fail at doing so and from what I can tell, to make money out of production requires a business brain, investment in the setting up of jigs and streamlining processes, appropriate space, bulk purchasing of materials etc. I'm not that sort of person and the money I have I would rather invest in new toys for my little shop and testing out other new ideas.
BigOakAdot
ArboristSite newb
Yeah we just drilled holes for a bolt and nut so that we can easily set up for a 3" thick cut. We plan on using this mill for slabbing some very large timber with our 60" bar which would mostly be cut at 3".
I have to say I'm disappointed in the design of this mill. I would be fine with it if it stayed put but now I'm spending time drilling all these holes while I'm still limited to pre set thicknesses. When it's all said and done I would have been better off with the grandberg that works exactly as it should.
I remember looking into the larger grandberg mills and they were over 500. I'm pretty sure I just found a 60" mill on grandbergs site for only 320. I'm kicking myself for not doing more updated research before buying our Panther mill.
Anyone in the market for a 72" Panther mill with a butchered drill job? Haha.
BOA
I have to say I'm disappointed in the design of this mill. I would be fine with it if it stayed put but now I'm spending time drilling all these holes while I'm still limited to pre set thicknesses. When it's all said and done I would have been better off with the grandberg that works exactly as it should.
I remember looking into the larger grandberg mills and they were over 500. I'm pretty sure I just found a 60" mill on grandbergs site for only 320. I'm kicking myself for not doing more updated research before buying our Panther mill.
Anyone in the market for a 72" Panther mill with a butchered drill job? Haha.
BOA
What can I say?
When the Panther Mill came out I was openly critical of the design on the forum, so much so that the guys at Panther contacted me to ask me to stop criticising the mill.
I do understand that these blokes are just trying to earn a living so I agreed to do, AND because I know that these types of product will eventually stand or fall on their own merits and posts from owners will hold more sway than anything I say.
When the Panther Mill came out I was openly critical of the design on the forum, so much so that the guys at Panther contacted me to ask me to stop criticising the mill.
I do understand that these blokes are just trying to earn a living so I agreed to do, AND because I know that these types of product will eventually stand or fall on their own merits and posts from owners will hold more sway than anything I say.
IyaMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
BobL, as an artist (sculptor) I can truly understand your feelings towards mass production and annoying customers, and how its much more enjoyable to not always rely on a hobby for income.
But from your posts and pics, the BIL mill sounds beyond impressive, and I just thought your efforts and struggles in developing it would definitely be appreciated by those who respect such craftsmanship.
Hah, maybe you should license the design to the Panther guys instead!
But from your posts and pics, the BIL mill sounds beyond impressive, and I just thought your efforts and struggles in developing it would definitely be appreciated by those who respect such craftsmanship.
Hah, maybe you should license the design to the Panther guys instead!
BigOakAdot
ArboristSite newb
Yeah I guess I just thought that people were making adjustments to make the mill a better mill not to make the mill work.
No one should be selling a mill that doesn't work as is. I'm probably going to sell that mill and just go with what I know works. Grandberg.
No one should be selling a mill that doesn't work as is. I'm probably going to sell that mill and just go with what I know works. Grandberg.
Thanks for the kind words but "sculptor" is a bit much. I see myself more as a" butcher".
I didn't see any of the development as an effort or struggle. I like development even more than I like milling. Most of the logs I have milled have not been for the wood but to test some small change on the mills I have been working on. Most people that home mill want the wood but if all the lumber I have cut were to be burnt tomorrow I would not be that upset. I'm the kind of person that likes the voyage possibly more than the destination. My home shop is full of gizmos and stuff that I just like developing, some of which I don't end up using for very long.
I can't really see anyone taking up the whole BIL mill design because the materials (all Al) are more expensive than steel and there are too many of fiddly bits and mods on it that require too much production/worker time and, lets face it, the outcome is no different - cutting slabs and lumber.
However, there are some features of the BIL mill that existing CSM manufacturers could take notice of.
Having used a Granberg and and Westford (Aussie Granberg equivalent) I find the BIL mill is much easier on the body to use.
The handle placement is just one of these features. Higher handles means being able to stand up to a mill rather than leaning over during the cutting.
This also means using a remote throttle but that could be as simple as a zip tie.
The other main feature is bolting the mill to the bar bolts. This stiffens the mill up considerably which is needed for the ally construction but it does add a bit more cutting length to the bar and allows the chain to be removed without taking the saw out of the mill. However, this then also requires a different clutch cover which is saw and model dependent. Just bolting a mill direct to the bar is nearly as good.
Using wheels on the inboard verticals are much better than skids but that would require a fair bit of fiddling in terms of construction.
The gizmos on the mill that allow for ease and speed of adjustment etc are nice but are not used all that often.
