People you just don't want to work for

[treeman82]

Last year I did a bunch of work for this group of ethnic Albanians. Did work for 1 guy, he referred me to 3 or 4 different people, one of those people recommended me to 2 people... you know how it goes. After one job went really bad, and the others had been really cheap I said to the first guy I wanted no more referrals from him. I said I appreciated the nice gesture he was making by referring me to his friends, but it just wasn't working out. Sure enough a few nights ago this new lady calls up wanting a good deal. I had given a friend of hers a VERY good price for putting a bunch of big trees on the ground in the dead of last winter. Now this lady wants a similar bargain for carting everything away. Hopefully I've priced myself out of it and won't be hearing from them again. Before I went and looked at the job though I knew that they would be cheap. Why the heck I went anyways? Probably because I had nothing better to do... but man I dislike dealing with that group. Nice, good natured people... but CHEAP.

 

[Streyken]

I know where you're coming from, growing up in Vancouver, I've dealt with cultural diversity my whole life. Dealing with people who have different underlying values can be difficult, but as you’ve already pointed out, with the number of referrals, can potentially be good business as well. The most common source of contention amongst different cultures is that of the universalist vs. the particularist.

Universalist:
• Focus is more on rules than relationships
• Legal contracts are readily drawn up.
• A trustworthy person is one who honours his word or contract.
• There is only one truth or reality, that which has to be agreed to.
• A deal is a deal.

Particularist:
• Focus is more on relationships than rules.
• Legal contracts are readily modified.
• A trustworthy person is one who honours changing mutualities.
• There are several perspectives on reality relative to each participant.
• Relationships evolve.

As can be seen by the very brief lists above, the West has strong universalist underpinnings. Neither is right nor wrong, just different, evolving to support one in the culture in which they were raised.

I received a call from a guy last week who even on the phone sounded demanding and impatient. When I went to price the job he was down right rude handing me off to his wife to show me what to do while he went downstairs. I priced the job, made a few suggestions, explained municipal regulations to her, and left my card. That night he phoned me with a totally different demeanor, polite, willing to work around my schedule, etc. He wanted me to talk with his neighbor regarding the proposed work, this wasn’t necessary, but I suggested it, as some of the work was to be preformed on trees backing his neighbour’s property and could potentially affect window sight lines. I did this and he took time from work to come with me. He didn’t quibble over price and told me to do what I thought best. Why the change? Certification, insurance, WC, etc. all the things you should have. He liked that I wasn’t, as he put it, “just another laborer or tree cutter”. This shows a certain cultural bias or prejudice. This attitude toward the lowly laborer can be seen in Western culture as well, but to a much lesser degree than in some other cultures.

If you can get around your own beliefs and values without getting offended and see where the other person is coming from, it’s amazing the cash that can be pulled from proclaimed empty pockets.

 

[treeman82]

I don't mean to sound like an ethnicist, but this group has been nothing but trouble for me. There are several things that they have in common for the most part.

1) CHEAP, they want rediculously cheap prices. 1 guy wanted me to cut down this ugly cherry over the neighbor's house for $20

2) Things always change... I go price 3 trees, get a call now they want 4, or start the job and they want 4 but don't want to pay any more.

3) They want to cut down all the trees. This property I looked at yesterday, they want every tree on the property to come down.

 

[9th year rookie]

Streyken - Well said.

I deal w/a very diverse client list and attribute alot of unusual behavior to cultural differences. Just didn't know how to get my hands around the idea like Streyken put it.

I notice some people can't except an initial quote and NEED to negotiate before agreeing to a price. Same tree $500 or $1500, all they want to do is take 10-20% off my quote and feel like they got a deal.

 

[treevet]

I figured out early in my career that if someone wants you to "throw in this little addition" to the job for the same price and you do it , then later they want you to "throw in" something else and you say no to that, they will be unhappy and it was a total waste of time, effort and goodwill to do the first throw in. In the same vein if you venture into being the low guy or the guy that can be talked down you get stuck there. Dead winter is the exception to that consideration.

 

[Streyken]

Many people, not just ethnic groups, want to feel that they are being listened to and this has to be done in a way they understand. I always get “and could you just cut this little thing” or “and while you’re here…” I respond something like, “Sure I’ll remove the small cherry, but that will be another $80.00. Won’t pay that? Then if you want me to cut the cherry that leaves me with only enough time to do the one side of the hedge. Need both done, hmm? Well, how about if I remove the cherry and branches, trim the hedge, but you do the raking and final clean up? Great! I’ll be here Wednesday.”

Treevet is right, you have to address the situation right then and there, let it slide or give in and you've established the parameters for your relationship with this customer.

If you don’t have the patience to do this, just highball it and leave it at that. It used to drive me nuts, now it’s kind of a game. Not with who will win, but how I can adapt to get along with difficult customers. When my friends ask, why I should be the one to make concessions? I just say, “Because I can.”

 

[Streyken]

9th year rookie, check if there is a Multicultural and Diversity Training program in your area. Here it was put on by the Justice Institute. This really opened my eyes as to why certain ethnicities behave the way they do.

 

[woodchux]

Personally i appreciate customers that want to haggle on price. May sound crazy but i'd rather come down a couple of bucks or do a little something extra than to have wasted my time doing the estimate and never hear back from them.
Just this week i did one where i told the guy $250 to cut down some red tips, he asked if i would do it for $200 cash, I said ok. when we did the job he ended up paying me $340 cash, and we got work from all the neighbors.

 

[Mtnman4ever]

I have run inot similar situationms.
people want this than that or do not want to pay fro a hazerdous job . ect .
I am uess ng that part of the problem is the impression given by all the home imporvement shows . HGTV ect have a bunch for example . They rarely show what goes into making a piece of land look so nice especially . if they have on hour and only show the interesting stuff , or some guy moving a boulder wilth a steel bar to place just right . They did not show the miniexcavator or full sizeed one lifting it and moviong the boulder to the place it is being adjustd " just right " . they never show falling trees . maybe a easy job where a guy firesup a saw does some a nice easy cuts puts in a wedge (hopefully ) finshes his falling cut and the tree of course goes rgiht where it was supposed to . . and so on

So when pople see this the expect every ome otdo a amziong job and a yard thay looks likenartha Setwart went through . (she is evil and has mad many a lan dscprs and arbprist trefallers lives miserable.)

Shows and magaxine fro consumersarely mention costs outr our costs . they think 0nly of price not quality.
I also do notthink it is ethnic though sp,e gruops seem to think all work is cheap by experince thire cousin comes over and doesthe wriok for a cash a meal anmd beers . like in the 1920s or so , or he type of work being disscued here is though of as unskiled labor and shouldbe cheap . Wrong !

We are all going to deal with it . another guess i just thought of is many are from the Burbs and cirty where tree work is just not doen a lot . they see asphlund ect in tress with a hydraulic sasw and huge chipper reducing a huge tree to nothing in short order .
They expect the same ous . not knowing what weare reallly doing yeah wqe all have a bunch of guys running to huge chippers and they just toss all the limbs even if teyare good timber for fiure wood or even board timber intoi theose huge trhibngs haiul t off dump it and in less than a few hours the tresare c gone .

we have to ocompeat with that and hacks it is the nature of the beast

 

[Streyken]

Woodchux, it's nice to see how often people respond in kind if you're willing to bend a little. I was working in a very affluent neighborhood and a guy approached me asking what I would charge to remove a large hazardous top that had broken out and was caught up in half a dozen other trees. He had been quoted up to 1600.00 by other companies (and this was to leave debris), I did it for $600.00 and though a bit tricky it only took two hours. I ended up doing a total of 2,200.00 worth of work over two days (no cleanup) and have gotten a number of referrals where they didn't even ask a price, "just do the work, Joe said you're fair." Everyone likes to feel like they're getting good value, whether it's price, knowledge, service or all the preceding. Of course there are those people who just want it done cheap and they're the ones you have to fire as clients over the long term.

 

[treeman82]

This lady yesterday also told me two 3 other things, things nobody wants to hear.

1) My father was a builder, so I know a little bit about this stuff.

2) My cousin offered to come and do the job for us for free... but he doesn't have any insurance.

3) This is how to cut down my tree...

 

[Streyken]

Sounds like a price only situation. Give a high price, or tell her she'll have to wait a few months because you're so busy, or both. Or maybe this is her way of protecting herself. Tell her she's paying for the insurance, experience and knowledge you have, educate her and charge for it. Hard call sometimes, go with your gut.

 

[Bermie]

So well said Stryken!
It is always wise to try and figure/understand where someone is coming from, if you can't figure it out then maybe they are idiotic or cheap, BUT it may just be a cultural issue and you have misjudged them.

PS: Woodchux, why'd the guy give you $340 after you said ok for $200? Just curious...

I went to see a big Poinciana...chap wanted to know if it was dangerous, I recommended an overall reduction and monitoring, he said, 'but that's going to cost me a fortune', he's an Irish penny pincher like my folks so I shrugged and said, but this tree MAKES your property...Which he knows, who do you want to work on it? He asked me to send a quote, so I highballed it (a bit) and sent a written visual external assessment report with work standards and insurance stuff on the bottom...I got the job.
A combination of the universalist approach and a bit of extra money for the hassle factor!

 

[woodchux]

PS: Woodchux, why'd the guy give you $340 after you said ok for $200? Just curious...

$140 tip... We do a good job and treat the customers and their property with respect.

I once got a $600 tip. The lady paid me $1500 on a $900 job! Work hard , treat people with respect, and it will come back to you.

 

[treevet]

I have run inot similar situationms.
people want this than that or do not want to pay fro a hazerdous job . ect .
I am uess ng that part of the problem is the impression given by all the home imporvement shows . HGTV ect have a bunch for example . They rarely show what goes into making a piece of land look so nice especially . if they have on hour and only show the interesting stuff , or some guy moving a boulder wilth a steel bar to place just right . They did not show the miniexcavator or full sizeed one lifting it and moviong the boulder to the place it is being adjustd " just right " . they never show falling trees . maybe a easy job where a guy firesup a saw does some a nice easy cuts puts in a wedge (hopefully ) finshes his falling cut and the tree of course goes rgiht where it was supposed to . . and so on

So when pople see this the expect every ome otdo a amziong job and a yard thay looks likenartha Setwart went through . (she is evil and has mad many a lan dscprs and arbprist trefallers lives miserable.)

Shows and magaxine fro consumersarely mention costs outr our costs . they think 0nly of price not quality.
I also do notthink it is ethnic though sp,e gruops seem to think all work is cheap by experince thire cousin comes over and doesthe wriok for a cash a meal anmd beers . like in the 1920s or so , or he type of work being disscued here is though of as unskiled labor and shouldbe cheap . Wrong !

We are all going to deal with it . another guess i just thought of is many are from the Burbs and cirty where tree work is just not doen a lot . they see asphlund ect in tress with a hydraulic sasw and huge chipper reducing a huge tree to nothing in short order .
They expect the same ous . not knowing what weare reallly doing yeah wqe all have a bunch of guys running to huge chippers and they just toss all the limbs even if teyare good timber for fiure wood or even board timber intoi theose huge trhibngs haiul t off dump it and in less than a few hours the tresare c gone .

we have to ocompeat with that and hacks it is the nature of the beast

Hey mountainman, I think Martha Stewart is evil, too!

 

[Streyken]

...sent a written visual external assessment report with work standards and insurance stuff on the bottom...I got the job.

A bit of paperwork always looks good, way to go. If your local municipality has implemented GIS maps, an overhead shot of the work-site with a bit of editing to break down the work zones, tree locations, sizes, etc. always impresses and is quick to mock-up.