Philbert Meets the STIHL RS3

[Philbert]

I picked up a Windsor Model136 at an auction this spring . . . Reversing motor.

Can you post a photo? Is it similar to the Oregon style grinders?

Thanks.

Philbert

 

[misterfreindly]

Philbert, will try. I haven't got the Photobucket thing worked out yet. It does look like the Italian made 511 series-minus the the handle. I really like that grinder. The Windsor is made in Italy. 300W motor. Mounted it on a piece of OSB(scrap) so it can be clamped in different situations. I really like that grinder. Had to pinch myself for getting it @ $60. Even the grinding wheel was almost new.
Good thread.

 

[Philbert]

We don't have as many choices in wheels (type, grit, etc.) for these grinders as there are for the Silvey grinders. Maybe someday I will be able to justify an ABN or CBN wheel.

I also posted this in another thread, but applies here too.

Tecomec appears to offer a range of hardness grinding wheels for the Speed Sharp / Jolly Star / Oregon 511a type grinders. Looks like they have to be imported 20 at a time.

For some reason I am unable to load this link. But go to Tecomec (www dot Tecomec dot com) , select 'Products', 'Chain Saw Accessories', and click on the photo of the grinding wheels. (Clicking on the Italian or British flag will change the page language into Italian or English).

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

A Few Additional Illustrations

This came up in another thread, so adding it here (NOTE: same illustration as in post # - updated since original thread). Hopefully it helps to clarify the comment I made in an earlier post about grinding to get the same profile that you would filing, then going back and clean out your gullets later, just as you would do with a file (note.- the hitting the depth gauge with the grinding wheel part is just my clumsy drawing skills - not a recommended practice!).



Also, from another thread, how some manuals recommend cleaning up the tangs on the drive links when dulled or damaged.



Philbert

 

[magictoad]

Do you use a weight to hold the chain steady in the old bars when doing the raker and hand filing, we use a block of steel with a J bolt welded to it to act as a chain strainer and only use a short bit of bar.

 

[Philbert]

Do you use a weight to hold the chain steady in the old bars when doing the raker and hand filing, we use a block of steel with a J bolt welded to it to act as a chain strainer and only use a short bit of bar.

I'd like to see a picture of that!

Clearly, its better to file against a steady object, so that all of your effort goes into the cut, and you can maintain your profile. I don't think that it is as important when filing the depth gauges (which just drag) then when filing the cutting edges, where a clean edge is required.

Somebody posted a photo of a roller placed in the bottom of the chain loop, and a bungie cord tied to the floor, kind of like an idler bearing, to maintain tension on the chain. Some other guys have mentioned different types of back up blocks, maybe like yours (?).

Personally, I am working on my own version of a filing vise, similar to the ones shown here:

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/120500.htm (EDIT - most of these photos were lost!)

which could be used for filing the cutters or the depth gauges. I will post it in that thread, eventually, when I get done with it.

Philbert

EDIT - Links to the thread on my 'low-tech', homemade filing vise: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philberts-low-tech-filing-vise.245004/

And to a professionally machined one by Homelite410: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/i-made-some-chain-vises.240935/

 

[magictoad]

I'd like to see a picture of that!

Clearly, its better to file against a steady object, so that all of your effort goes into the cut, and you can maintain your profile. I don't think that it is as important when filing the depth gauges (which just drag) then when filing the cutting edges, where a clean edge is required.

Somebody posted a photo of a roller placed in the bottom of the chain loop, and a bungie cord tied to the floor, kind of like an idler bearing, to maintain tension on the chain. Some other guys have mentioned different types of back up blocks, maybe like yours (?).

Personally, I am working on my own version of a filing vise, similar to the ones shown here:

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/120500.htm

which could be used for filing the cutters or the depth gauges. I will post it in that thread, eventually, when I get done with it.

Philbert

Our one works like the roller and bungie, but without the bungie, just weight on its own, J bolt just hangs over the bottom of the chain.

 

[magictoad]

I like the idea on the wooden holder, i would use a different cam leaver that clamped the hole length of the wood, thus one cam lever and a free hand to move the chain along.

 

[Philbert]

UPDATE: I have gone back and tried to replace all of the lost photos and illustration from this thread.

I also started a companion 'Challenge Chain' thread to test the theory that 'almost any chain can be saved', which also takes a look at rust removal and other issues:

Philbert’s Chain Salvage Challenge http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philberts-chain-salvage-challenge.245369/

Philbert

 

[7sleeper]

Thanks for the work!

7

 

[griffonks]

Thanks Philbert. I'm still getting used to my 511ax. If anybody has a line on sharpener tips, lessons or info please let me know. I jacked up a chain for my Echo Cs4400, miss-sharpened it I mean and don't know what I did wrong.

3/8 0.50 Chisel is fine though.

Sent from my SCH-R530C using Tapatalk

 

[Philbert]

If anybody has a line on sharpener tips, lessons or info please let me know.

There have been several good threads on grinders.

EDIT: here are several of the larger threads on using a 511a type grinder to save some searching - include use, tweaking, etc.:

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oregon-511a-chain-grinder-expert-help-please.190145/

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...uy-an-oregon-511-or-something-similar.248403/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511a-grinder-improvements-tweaks.197073/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511ax-vise.228345/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/northern-hyd-grinder-making-it-work-pics.40844/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/depth-gauges-on-a-grinder.200410/


Philbert

 

[Philbert]

If anybody has a line on sharpener tips, lessons or info please let me know.

Posted several inks above. In summary, using a grinder takes a little knowledge, a little experience, and a little skill to become proficient. It is not automatic. It does not work like a chop saw.

- The manuals stink. If you can get someone to show you in person, that is best.

- Make sure the parts of your grinder work properly. Some castings may need smoothing. Scales may need calibrating. Vices may need to be centered. Nuts/clamps should hold securely. Etc.

- Understand which parts of the cutter you are trying to grind and how far. There may be disagreement on what the 'ideal' cutter looks like (that's a separate discussion), but you should have a clear picture of what you are trying to achieve.

- Take lots of small bites rather than a few large ones to avoid overheating the cutters. If you learned Morse code as a Boy Scout, think all 'dots' and no 'dashes'. It is easy to overheat a cutter - if you do, no big deal, just grind off a little more on that tooth.

- Dress the wheel frequently - you are not doing this just to maintain an edge profile, but to clen the wheel and expose fresh abrasive. I do this any time I notice a changes in the grinding - sometimes as often as once or twice a loop. Clean chains don't gunk up the wheels as much.

- Good lighting helps. Work somewhere where dust and sparks will not be a problem (I like to grind outdoors if possible).

- Other than that - practice. Get some old chains and see what it takes to: overheat cutters; grind back a rocked cutter; re-shape gullets; change angles; do depth gauges; etc. Look through those threads (and others) to see if any of those ideas or comments make sense after you have used yours for a little bit.

Philbert

 

[LegDeLimber]

On the topic of dealing with water wet chains after they are cleaned.
Try this: IF you can set up a hot plate or have a shop heater/stove

You put the, still wet, chain in a metal container
( I always liked something --just-- large enough to spread the chain flat with no overlaps)
and then pour in just enough oil To have the chain completely immersed.
Now put the container on your heat source and let the oil get hot.
The oil needs to be a bit above the boiling temp of water.
You want the oil to begin to get thin enough that you swirl it around about like
warm motor oil from changing a warm engined car or truck.
And the oil --must-- get hotter than the boiling point of the water.

Now leave the chain bucket on the heat until the chain also gets hotter
than the boiling point of the water.

what happens then is when the water steams out of the chain, the warm oil
slips in to fill that void left by the now steamed out water.
This is the reason for completely immersing the chain in the oil.
This also works with solvent washed chains.
Just BE CAREFUL of the fumes and don't set the chain bucket on fire!!

When the chain has been heated long enough to drive ALL of the water out,
Using some pliers or something, as that hot chain will blister your hands.
You'll also need a way to hang the chain over the oil bucket, to drip off
the excess oil.
It can be a sturdy wire hanging from overhead or something like
an old french fryer basket.
It just needs to be some way of letting the excess oil to drain out the chain .
It should be pretty well done by the time the chain is cool enough to handle again.

When done , you'll be rewarded with nicely lubed rivet holes and slick moving chain.
I used to do this with my motorcycle chains and it worked great for them.

Yeah I know it sounds a bit OCD, over the top, But it does a nice job of letting you
soak a chain for cleaning and then have a positive way to get the water out and oil in.

 

[7sleeper]

That sure sounds like one of the most complicated ways to solve a real simple problem that I have ever heard of.



7

 

[Cedar Row]

Final Steps

Re-Lube

The caustic cleaning takes off all of the chain lubrication, as noted above, which can lead to rusting. I don't soak my chains overnight in bar and chain oil, like some of the older guidelines suggested, but I certainly want some lubrication between the links and around the rivets during storage. So I heavily spray both sides of the chain with WD-40, which displaces moisture, and is more likely to penetrate into tight spaces.

I use the spray trigger style (not aerosol) can and an old baking pan lined with paper shop towels which soak up any overspray and hold it next to the chain. A light brushing with an old toothbrush after spraying removes the light surface rust noted in the first post. While it is still wet, I pull the loop a few times around a dowel rod to move the rivets, check for any tight links, and give the WD-40 a chance to work in around the moving parts.

View attachment 339264

Not perfect, and does not look new enough to return to the dealer, but a big improvement over how it was received, and ready to go back to work.

View attachment 339265

Lots of threads on storing chains - I return the chains however the end user wants them (zip-lock bags, original chain boxes, zip-tied into bundles, hanging loops, etc.).

Philbert

I like the paper towel trick. I use a process similar to yours, but hadn't thought of a paper towel to hold the cleaner on the bottom of the chain.
In reference to the Oregon Raker guide, that looks like a better guide because of its middle location. I have always assumed that after a chain is filed/ground correctly, the cutters should be pretty close to the same height.

 

[angelo c]

Philbert,
Can you point me to instructions on centering the vice on the 511a. I looked through the manual and found nothing.
I don't get even cutters left or right.

Thanks

 

[old guy]

I'm not Philbert but I find this info. on page 12 item 9 figures 22-23 of the online manual, it really doesn't explain much, hope this helps.

John

 

[angelo c]

I'm not Philbert but I find this info. on page 12 item 9 figures 22-23 of the online manual, it really doesn't explain much, hope this helps.

John

thanks Old Guy,
Im not following what that centers the chain to, I was thinking maybe centering the link lengthwise was what I was after. ill recheck that setting though anyway.

 

[Philbert]

The manuals for these grinders (all of them) are pretty poor. They only make sense after you already understand the grinders and no longer need the manuals. The newer manuals are just as bad, but only use pictograms for international audiences, so if you are a mime with a chainsaw, you might be in luck.

By 'centering' the vise, we mean that both the Right and Left cutters will be ground to the same length, without adjusting the chain stop. On the 511A (and similar grinders), this is done with the hex bolt and locking nut. The easiest way to do this is to take a new chain and set it in the vise like you were going to grind it. Keep rotating the vise for the R and L cutters, and adjusting the hex nut, until they both are the same distance from the wheel.

Note that this changes slightly as the wheel wears. So you can check the centering periodically, or double check each chain as you grind it (what I do). I grind all the cutters on one side, then just one cutter on the other. I hold this cutter back-to-back with a cutter from the first side, and make any fine adjustments needed. They should be close. If not, center your vise!

The 511AX is supposed to have a self-centering vise.



More info on this grinder in links referenced in Post #32 above, including :
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511a-grinder-improvements-tweaks.197073/

Philbert