Pine Grove

[party_wagon]

I have a 90 acre plot that was cleared and planted in longleaf pine about 15 years ago. This pine is now way over crowded & they need to be thinned some time, but I want to thin them at a time that can be the most profitable. Is there a general rule of thumb on when to thin a grove out so that you maximize profit off of pulp & do not slow the growth of the other trees that you plan on leaving for another 15 or so years? I would estimate there are over 25 trees per 100 square feet(10x10 foot area) & they are about 30 feet tall.

 

[Burvol]

There is a couple ways to go about it. For starters, you can look at all the forked, bent, or broken tops from crows landing on the them, ect. and cull them, then figure out what trees are not competing well in the stand. Look for defects as well.

 

[floyd]

Think spacing as well. The big boys thin every other row at yr 15 then maybe take every other tree in the row 10 or so yrs later then harvest some of that "southern pine lumber" with 5 rings /inch around yr 30. The rest will go to pulp.


Was the stand ever burned at at age 3 or 5? Seems like that is an accepted practice, or used to be.

 

[party_wagon]

No, the property is a little out of the way and didn't get any use at all. The timber was stolen & pines came up from seed. No one had been out here in about 10 years and figured that it would be over grown by sweet gums & got a nice surprise. This land is on a very active river bottom that is suposed to be prime for growing pines so I guess the pines grow well w/out much help. However, it is now obvious that they are going to thin themselves out and slow down their growth. Trying to make what I can out of some luck.

 

[slowp]

Just running a processor through it will thin it some. I think it is all harvested mechanically in that area? I take it that you have a natural stand and not the rows of plantations?

Some processor operators do not know how to work in natural stands, they are used to rows, or so they will tell you. That's from my experience in Up Nort Wisconsin.

Note that we who are answering are PNWers. I've never seen a longleaf pine. Maybe you should see if your county has a forester? Or make some local phone calls?

 

[party_wagon]

These aren't in rows. I just want to do some home work before I get a a pro out there. What type of numbers would people expect per tree at about 15 years?

 

[Hddnis]

Best thing to do is ask around the local area there. A good forester will answer your initial questions without charging and get you started in the right direction.

Find other landowners and ask who they used. Look in the yellow pages. Find a logger and ask who they know. In time knowing good people is going to make or break most projects like this.

The prices you can get will depend on what the mill is paying, and you take out expenses trucking the wood to them, and that is after the expense of getting the wood out and loaded.

Often the first thin on a stand of timber does not make money, you are lucky if you break even.




Mr. HE

 

[hammerlogging]

longleaf is a very special tree and it will provide much value once its sawtimber. You should thin and have a target basal area. A good operator will not need a marked stand which will save you money. Ideally you will find someone with a harvester and forwarder setup (cut to length, CTL) but way more typical will be a wheeled fellerbuncher and grapple skidder. Careful if its really wet it will make harvest system choice much more critical. Since its not in rows productivity will be lower so you a break even job may be all you get but that will still grow your timber faster and is worth doing, otherwise maybe $1-2 per ton

Get a state forester to tell you about basal area and ask where you can see a similar but completed first thinning stand, get references on who does you work, maybe visit one of their old jobs.

 

[Hddnis]

Maybe you guys can help me learn here.

I'm trying to imagine a machine (Other than the Jungle Crusher) working in a stand where there are 25 trees per 100 square feet. It seems like you would basically be mowing rows through the stand.

I've seen some of the youtube videos of pine logging in the south, but none seemed to match what we are talking about here.

Just trying to learn.



Mr. HE

 

[joesawer]

I have worked on a number of jobs like this one.
They take a rubber tire feller buncher and cut and bunch the trees in rows. then they are skidded out of the rows.
It is not in rows when they start but looks like a row crop farm after the first thinning if the ground is decent and the operators are skilled.
I don't know where you are but right now pine pulp is doing ok in NE Alabama.
The first thinning in this part of the country is often around 17 years but if you have above average growing conditions it could be viable at 15 years.

 

[joesawer]

Maybe you guys can help me learn here.

I'm trying to imagine a machine (Other than the Jungle Crusher) working in a stand where there are 25 trees per 100 square feet. It seems like you would basically be mowing rows through the stand.

I've seen some of the youtube videos of pine logging in the south, but none seemed to match what we are talking about here.

Just trying to learn.



Mr. HE

100 sq ft is 10X10. It is highly unlikely that he has 25 fifteen year old trees in a 10'X10' square unless they are bonsai trees.

 

[Gypo Logger]

100 sq ft is 10X10. It is highly unlikely that he has 25 fifteen year old trees in a 10'X10' square unless they are bonsai trees.

Ya that sounds like alot of stems in a small area. I'd leave the trees tight on the edges to protect from winds and thin inside for about 2 metre spacing between dominant stems. Just do it as thow they were carrots and you were doing some weeding. The ideal spacing wood be where the crowns or lower limbs aren't touching each other.
Gypo

 

[party_wagon]

I can't even walk into this area its so thick in most cases. If the ground is in a yearly flood plain should I try to target a dry time of the year. I read that you can look at the trees and tell if they are over crowded by the % of their crown. What I was reading was saying about 35% or less means time to thin. Does this sound about right?

 

[Burvol]

Maybe you guys can help me learn here.

I'm trying to imagine a machine (Other than the Jungle Crusher) working in a stand where there are 25 trees per 100 square feet. It seems like you would basically be mowing rows through the stand.

I've seen some of the youtube videos of pine logging in the south, but none seemed to match what we are talking about here.

Just trying to learn.



Mr. HE

That's where the 3 wheeled hot saw feller buncher came from. SE USA tree farms. I've seen one in the PNW, fun to watch.

 

[slowp]

I can't even walk into this area its so thick in most cases. If the ground is in a yearly flood plain should I try to target a dry time of the year. I read that you can look at the trees and tell if they are over crowded by the % of their crown. What I was reading was saying about 35% or less means time to thin. Does this sound about right?

Yes, try for a dry time. There'll be less damage to the soil. Also, look into when the sap is up, which makes for looser bark. Around here, that time is in the Spring, and trees won't take the abuse that they will in the Fall and Winter. There is less chance of bad scars from rubbing by logs and equipment when the bark is tight.

The logger will want straight skid trails. Expect about 10 feet wide for that, depending on how big the equipment is. Straight means less rubbing. Some do not like to have to carry the logs to the skid trails and will want skid trails closer together, depending on their reach with the cutting machine-they don't like to have to back up. Backing up adds time. You'll want to negotiate on that. Be sure and keep tabs on the operation. Some operators will take more "watching" than others. Get references too.

I can't answer on the crown closure. That would be something to ask about locally.

 

[Gypo Logger]

It would help to know where you are located. The trees sound like they have nil to no value and extraction may be more costly than the pulp it yields.
You also have to consider that no contractor will touch it if they have greener pastures.
Had it been row thinning it may be a different story.
From where I stand, your best bet is to pay an independent forestor to spend an hr. and he'll tell you your options and the best prescription for your woodlot.
Gypo

 

[Burvol]

I've seen some trees "released" at that age (thining around the dominant) that did not respond, some did. You might start by looking for defect. Automatic cull if your gonna be playing "God" with your trees, LOL. Might as well get any pistol butts, scar, school marms, ect. out. It's a place to start that will not hurt anything, unless your so set on spacing you'll keep defect in the stand.

 

[Gypo Logger]

I've seen some trees "released" at that age (thining around the dominant) that did not respond, some did. You might start by looking for defect. Automatic cull if your gonna be playing "God" with your trees, LOL. Might as well get any pistol butts, scar, school marms, ect. out. It's a place to start that will not hurt anything, unless your so set on spacing you'll keep defect in the stand.

From the sounds of it I think those trees are holding each other up.
If it was opened up too much I can see the rest of the stand suffering from wind throw. He must be in a warmer climate, as I can see a stand like this succumbing to snow press.
Were it my woodlot, I'd get a herbicide gun and shoot at least 30% of the less dominant stems and shoot another 30% 3-5 years later.
That would lead to alot of dead stems and a fire hazard, but what pine bush isn't a fire hazard?
Gypo

 

[joesawer]

It would help to know where you are located. The trees sound like they have nil to no value and extraction may be more costly than the pulp it yields.
You also have to consider that no contractor will touch it if they have greener pastures.
Had it been row thinning it may be a different story.
From where I stand, your best bet is to pay an independent forestor to spend an hr. and he'll tell you your options and the best prescription for your woodlot.
Gypo

If he is in the southeast and the trees are 10" inches dbh there are mechanized harvesting crews that are supper efficient and will put it on a truck for about $13+ per ton.
That leaves a little wiggle room for a dealer/forester and the landowner depending on how far it has to be trucked.

 

[joesawer]

Check out the pictures of what these pulp wooders are doing.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=125582&page=3