Please comment/criticize on my work

[jaymay75]

Hi, I'm pretty new here, although I've been reading for awhile. The amount of knowledge on these forums from some of you is really amazing.

I cut a pretty big pine down yesterday (big for me) and I would like to post the pics so all of you can critique my work. I'd love to pick up anything else that could help me out.

Just to give you a little background, I had power lines running to the house about 20 feet behind the tree. I also had my house on the right side of the tree about 20 feet. The tree had a heavy lean in the direction I wanted it to fall, so It made it pretty easy to take down. I probably didn't need to attach a line to it, but I did anyways. I managed to get the line about 30 feet up the tree. Pines are a pain in the but to get a line up high. Tree was bout 20 inches at the base, and about 60 ft tall.

The only problem I really ran into was cutting the notch. I cut it way too deep. I couldn't get the angles just perfect so I had to keep cutting and adjusting to make the notch right. I seem to be able to notch smaller trees pretty well, but the bigger ones give me problems. Ah well, here is the link.

http://community.webshots.com/user/jaymay75

 

[begleytree]

First and most important thing is you got it down safely, without damage, so you did fine.
second, I like to see a rope about 2/3s the way up if pulling something over, you said you made it 1/2.
third, try cutting your down cut part of the notch first, I'm told that its easier for unexperienced guys to notch that way, then make your flat cut to meet it. never any deeper than 1/3 the diameter.
four, My rule is anything 12' or taller gets a rope in it, no excuses, if for nothing more than guidence. Glad to see you put a rope in it.
We won't get into the "why did you cut it down" nonsense, others are sure to bring that up. Although you don't see any of them sitting/living in trees that are slated for removal. Talking that talk is much easier than walking that walk.
Overall, I say room for improvement, but good job. fun time over, now the cleanup starts!
-Ralph

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by begleytree
We won't get into the "why did you cut it down" nonsense, others are sure to bring that up. Although you don't see any of them sitting/living in trees that are slated for removal. Talking that talk is much easier than walking that walk.

Talk has saved a lot more trees than tree sitting, although tree sitting has raised awareness, so the point is debateable. I can't tell you how many times a topping or removal call has turned into a proper trim. Just a little edumacating, that's all.

Jay,
It looks like you did fine.
Some action shots would have been nice, so we could see how you hold the saw, what protective gear you wear, and what you look like.

 

[jaymay75]

Oh, BTW I cut it down because we're putting a patio in on that side. Also, I can't stand Pine trees close to the house. Grass doesn't grow, needles and sap everywhere. Sun doesn't get at the house in the winter. I don't mind them as a border around the property, but not close to the house. I'd like to plant some other tree in that area to takes its place though. Haven't decided on what. Something smaller. I'm not even sure if anything will grow where these pines were at. I really didn't get to look into that yet. Still in the cutting phase.

Believe me, I bought a very tree friendly property. They're are trees everywhere. I have 3 huge maples (probably 30 inches thick at the base) in the front yard. Pretty much an apple orchid in the back yard. About 10 apple trees. Probably have about 50-75 pretty decent sized trees on the 2.5 acres. Really nice

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Great idea with the multiple-pictures link!

Good process of reasoning for removal and replacement; I'd add right tree-wrong place, up against the wires. Sometimes the utility will take you up on an invitation to do the work if it saves them pruning it forever.

Scary-deep notch; maybe some practice before the next hairy fell would help. The big thing is, when compensating you only have to take some off the side, not deepen the whole notch.

Lots of things will grow where the pine was; Job #1 is a soil test, so you can match the replacement tree to the soil or vice versa.

If you want to build an outbuilding sometime, you're looking at the lumber for it--any portable millers in the area? It can be a resource instead of a mess to haul off.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I would have tried to keep it. A heavy trim woulda turned it into a different tree altogether. You might have changed your attitude about it then. But if not, THEN you could still remove it.
Now, both options are gone.

And you have a big, ugly stump to deal with.

 

[jaymay75]

I called the electric co. They didn't have any interest in removing it. I know, I need to get better at notching. I can do the little trees fine, but that one I had a hard time with. That took me like 30 minutes to cut too, meaning I really took my time. I did the top notch first too. Ah well, I'll get better. I got one more to come down, so hopefully I'll be sending much improved pics.

How would one go about finding a milling company to take the tree. Would they send a truck and a pick to come pick it up. I agree, its good thick lumber. I'd hate to waste it. Right now, I've been cutting it up for my neighbor. He burns it (lets it dry out pretty good first).

 

[rb_in_va]

Woodmizer can get you some contact info for people with Woodmizer mills in you area. Or just ask around at a small lumberyard or a store like Woodcraft.

 

[NeTree]

Not too shabby overall.


Notch shouldn't have been so deep, though.

I noticed your extra wide hinge... next time if it seems awfully hard pulling over, try thinning the hinge out a little. I'm not suggesting you take it to the 1" or under point like I do, but anything over 2" usually just meakes it too hard to pull over.

30 minutes to cut? Was the saw sharp?



Keep us posted!

 

[glens]

Jay,

Pulling on a stem with a too-thick hinge can cause a barber-chair.

There are many good sources of information.  If you don't already have it, fetch a copy of http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf (about ½MB), it's as good as any felling document available.

Glen

 

[jaymay75]

Yeah, brand new blade. The saw was fine, it was just me second guessing and cutting again. Then backing up and looking to make sure its just right. But then I backed up one time and thought "wow, this notch is way too deep" Too late now. ha ha.

 

[jaymay75]

Thats a question I had. Here's my process:

I hook the rope up and get it snug. I cut the notch out. Then I get the line a little more tight. Give it a couple cranks with the come along. Then I start the back cut. I cut a couple inches and go back over to the come along and give it a couple more cranks.

This time, when I went back to the tree. I cut maybe one more inch and it started cracking. At the point when it starts cracking, Do I pack up and bail out or do I keep cutting. Thats why the hinge was so big. It started cracking and I shut the saw off and bailed. Should I keep cutting?

 

[NeTree]

I zip a little more off the hinge before it gets too far, still leaving myself plenty of time to get safe.

Blade? You cut it with a skil-saw? Oh, you meant a CHAIN!



Second-guessing isn't necessarily bad. I do it quite often; I'll start out with one plan and then switch mid-removal if I see something that affects how I was going to do it originally.

 

[jaymay75]

Yeah, I meant chain. I know some of you hate that. I haven't had my coffee yet, and a little tired from limbing that tree last night and hauling it away. Those pines have A LOT of branches. ha ha. Going to try to do the logs tonight if the weather holds.

I took all the branches and dumped them on the backside of my neighbors property. (he knows) I put them right up next to a hedgerow, so it will give the deer a windbreak and some shelter for the winter.

Blade vs. chain. Its like when I go hunting and someone askes "Did you catch anything?" Just annoys the hell out of me.

 

[NeTree]

...or when they see you standing there with a whole stringer of fish... "Catch them fish?"


"Nope. Talked 'em into givin' up!"

 

[glens]

Jay,

Since the tree had (quoting your first post) "a heavy lean in the direction I wanted it to fall" you most likely "didn't need to attach a line to it".  On a sound stem, the hinge would be all that's necessary to ensure the tree goes in the proper direction.  If you're using only one line and need to ensure the tree does not go to one side, you'd do better to put a slight side tension away from the obstacle, so that the line maintains the tension most of the way down.

In your case, putting tension on the system two times before starting the back cut was relatively dangerous.  There was already tension in that direction; built into the system.

Have a look at <a href="http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?postid=134929#post134929">this AS thread part</a> to see what can happen with a leaner (or one made effectively so with a pulling line).&nbsp; That tree was obviously configured differently from yours and was a different species, both of which can be factors, but it depicts what <i>can</i> happen.&nbsp; See the section "Felling Heavy Leaners" in the document I linked earlier.

While we're critiquing, it looks like you bypassed the notch cuts a little in <a href="http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/6/29/47/151262947yqLNzp_ph.jpg">this shot</a> and <a href="http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/6/29/59/151262959rFeKSq_ph.jpg">this one</a>.&nbsp; That's called a dutchman, and it's an undesirable situation in itself.&nbsp; It will cause the hinge to work very much differently than you might think, at any rate.&nbsp; Under all but very advanced situations (if even then), you do not want the notch cuts to bypass.

With a leaner like that, and really any time there's enough room in the stem regardless the lean, you want to get the most precise hinge formation possible before the tree starts to move.&nbsp; This is best accomplished by bore cutting the back side of the hinge after forming the notch, and working your way towards the back with the back cut.&nbsp; Again, see the document I linked earlier.

Glen

 

[SilverBlue]

Looking at how the butt is in the air it's perhaps a good thing that a rope is used unless the cutter could run quick enough to keep from getin hit in the chops. Playing with the hinge may have had a different outcome.

 

[jaymay75]

Glens,
Your post made a lot of sense to me. So when you have a heavy leaner in the right direction, there is no need for additional tension with the pull line. I'd just want to use the pull line to direct the tree.

Now, lets say that the tree didn't have a lean. Does my plan make sense. Cut the notch, put tension on the line. Start theback cut. put a little more tension. then cut the rest of the back cut.

Also, after thinking about it.. since the notch was too deep, the tree started to crack earlier than usual, which is why there is such a wide hinge. So next time, I'll do a lot better with a smaller notch.

Yeah, I really had a hard time with that notch. That was the biggest tree I've taken yet. My notches look a lot better in the other smaller trees I've taken, but that one kinda threw me off. Do the angles of the notch look good though? Also, when you make the back cut, you do this about 1 inch above the apex of the notch right? I also read somewhere that you make this cut in line with the apex, but I don't think that is right.

 

[NeTree]

I prefer to make my back-cut dead-even with the notch apex most of the time. There are times when cutting it 1 or 2 inches higher is desireable, as well.

Mostly that affects how long the hinge will stay attached as the tree falls, and how the hinge behaves, in combination with your notch.

The 1 or 2 inches higher will make a more flexible hinge that will stay attached longer. Combine that with a nice wide face on your notch, and you will often get the tree to fall with the hinge still intact after impact.

An even backcut and a smaller notch will make hinge tear much earlier in the fall.

 

[glens]

Originally posted by jaymay75
Now, lets say that the tree didn't have a lean. Does my plan make sense. Cut the notch, put tension on the line. Start theback cut. put a little more tension. then cut the rest of the back cut.

That should work.&nbsp; I prefer to take up the initial slack, then fully prepare the cuts and use felling wedges.&nbsp; If they aren't going to make it on their own, I'll then pull on the rope in conjunction with them.&nbsp; I don't use a pull line all that often; maybe not as often as I should.

Also, after thinking about it.. since the notch was too deep, the tree started to crack earlier than usual, which is why there is such a wide hinge. So next time, I'll do a lot better with a smaller notch.

Undoubtedly.&nbsp; Actually, the notch was a bit deep, but the "cracking early" probably had more to do with the (excessive) tension.&nbsp; Perhaps the biggest reason your hinge even snapped was because of the dutchman!

Do the angles of the notch look good though? Also, when you make the back cut, you do this about 1 inch above the apex of the notch right? I also read somewhere that you make this cut in line with the apex, but I don't think that is right.

The angles look good enough.&nbsp; With a very "limby" tree such as that, you might want the stem to stay attached to the stump and remove the limbs, working your way back to the stump, relieving the tension they induce before releasing the stem from the stump.&nbsp; To do that you'd need a notch opening at or slightly greater than the angle the stem will fall.

You want the back cut above the apex of the notch, adjusting height to approach the same height of the apex as the notch becomes more and more symmetrical about the horizon (perpendicularity to the stem, actually).

That brings to mind another consideration.&nbsp; You want the back cut to be oriented the same as the notch apex (parallel to it when viewed straight into the notch), so bear that in mind if what I'm about to say sounds confusing.&nbsp; When using wedges or other means of leverage in the back cut, you want the cut to be perpendicular to the stem as it works backwards away from the hinge instead of <i>strictly horizontal</i> in the case there would be a difference.&nbsp; When you push against the end grain with your lever, you want the push to be 90&deg; to that grain.&nbsp; If it's not, you run the very real risk of separating the stem or stump along a growth ring, causing the tree to set back.&nbsp; That situation's not fun at best!&nbsp; If the tree sets back, so long as the back cut is perpendicular to the stem (as it progresses backward away from the hinge), it will at least stay standing.&nbsp; To the extent the back cut diverges from a right angle to the stem, the risk is greater that the acute side will break away if/when pressure is applied and the tree will (attempt to) go over backwards.&nbsp; I guess what I'm trying to say is the back cut should be horizontal unless that takes it too far from being a right angle to the stem at that point.

I normally don't espouse wanton mutilation of trees, but it's really worthwhile to find some "unnecessary" trees and practice different scenarios.&nbsp; Use smaller stems and intentionally create problems for yourself so you can know how to avoid them.

Glen