FLtreeGuyVHTC
ArboristSite Operative
This probably can't be proven till spring but for the sake of the Ash population and to cure my curiosity I have to ask some one certified... Any idea if this cold will have any effect on the beetle/larva/eggs?
Polar Freeze vs EAB
- Thread starter FLtreeGuyVHTC
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HuskStihl
Chairin'em for the sound
I don't know, but I hope they get wiped out. They don't affect me much, but the pine bark beetle has got my property in shambles
I have read a couple of reports... One out of St. Paul Minnesota (linked) said they exposed the bugs to -20F and -30F. At -20 half died. at -30 90% died.
On the surface, it sounds promising...but I think the any conclusion leading to hope is slightly misguided. Here is why:
*First, if I am understanding that right, they removed the bugs from the tree. If it is -20 outside, the tree is providing some insulation so it is certainly just a little warmer under the bark (and some of the bugs even go deeper into the tree). I am not sure -30 was widespread enough to make a difference.
*Have you ever pulled back the bark on an EAB killed tree? I am pretty sure that even 50% of the bugs would have killed the tree...there is NO (as in 0.0000000%) undisturbed cambium on trees taken out of heavy infestations.
*Even if you kill 90% of the bugs, population dynamics are such that the population will recover in a year and be right back where they started. Realize that when a new population started, only a few bugs came to a very localized spot. They spread from there so now they are all over town. Knock back 90% of an evenly distributed population, now you have a small population much bigger than the original infestation, but it is not localized, it is all over town. So it took 3 years from first detection before they were all over town. Now, they will be all over town from the start and will be full force within an generation or two.
*Maybe -30 temps every year will keep them at bay...but I think that would be more of a "northern limit" of the pest - right?
*-30 is not easy on trees either. Add in the fact that when trees suffer from cold, the majority of the problem is related to dehydration. Well...when you have trees with EAB in them, they are already water stressed. So maybe you kill 50% of the EAB larvae which reduces the tree's stress...but on the other hand you also increased the stress with the severe cold.
Not claiming I am smarter than the researchers who did the study. First, keep in mind the information about it from a news story, so obviously the whole story is not there (and what is there is probably only half right...). I'll also say I have been living with these dang bugs for 10 years. In that time, I have seen a lot of research coming out of the fringes of the population offering hope based on this or that only to be wiped away by next year's wave of EAB destruction. I am not a pessimistic kind of a guy...but EAB hasn't left much hope. Except for maybe the blue ash...they seem to be hanging on a little better than anything else - I have some very reserved optimism for those (ugh...my best hope is for blue ash-that is pretty sad).
On the surface, it sounds promising...but I think the any conclusion leading to hope is slightly misguided. Here is why:
*First, if I am understanding that right, they removed the bugs from the tree. If it is -20 outside, the tree is providing some insulation so it is certainly just a little warmer under the bark (and some of the bugs even go deeper into the tree). I am not sure -30 was widespread enough to make a difference.
*Have you ever pulled back the bark on an EAB killed tree? I am pretty sure that even 50% of the bugs would have killed the tree...there is NO (as in 0.0000000%) undisturbed cambium on trees taken out of heavy infestations.
*Even if you kill 90% of the bugs, population dynamics are such that the population will recover in a year and be right back where they started. Realize that when a new population started, only a few bugs came to a very localized spot. They spread from there so now they are all over town. Knock back 90% of an evenly distributed population, now you have a small population much bigger than the original infestation, but it is not localized, it is all over town. So it took 3 years from first detection before they were all over town. Now, they will be all over town from the start and will be full force within an generation or two.
*Maybe -30 temps every year will keep them at bay...but I think that would be more of a "northern limit" of the pest - right?
*-30 is not easy on trees either. Add in the fact that when trees suffer from cold, the majority of the problem is related to dehydration. Well...when you have trees with EAB in them, they are already water stressed. So maybe you kill 50% of the EAB larvae which reduces the tree's stress...but on the other hand you also increased the stress with the severe cold.
Not claiming I am smarter than the researchers who did the study. First, keep in mind the information about it from a news story, so obviously the whole story is not there (and what is there is probably only half right...). I'll also say I have been living with these dang bugs for 10 years. In that time, I have seen a lot of research coming out of the fringes of the population offering hope based on this or that only to be wiped away by next year's wave of EAB destruction. I am not a pessimistic kind of a guy...but EAB hasn't left much hope. Except for maybe the blue ash...they seem to be hanging on a little better than anything else - I have some very reserved optimism for those (ugh...my best hope is for blue ash-that is pretty sad).
FLtreeGuyVHTC
ArboristSite Operative
I've seen them turn Ash trees into Swiss cheese. Maybe they should see how cold it will have to get to achieve 100% sterol. Then try it on different dbh trees
old_soul
ArboristSite Operative
I was wondering the same thing last week........we split some EAB trees up which had been cut in summer......the little bastards were still very much alive inside the wood
it has been cold here, it was 8 degrees the day we were splitting, I think that -20 was the coldest, a couple weeks ago.............
Guido Salvage
Supreme Saw Whoreder
The temperatures need to be cold (at least -20F) AND sustained to have any impact on them. Some will be killed, but it will not effectively stop the spread.
2treeornot2tree
Dont cry, just do it
In a arborist class today. We talked about eab and the cold. The penn state entomologist said seeing where eab came from the cold will have little effect on killing eab.
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FLtreeGuyVHTC
ArboristSite Operative
We'll it's been a little more extreme then normal. At night it dips down to about -10 or so plus wind chill. It would be sustained for one night. Let's say 9 hours which is much longer then the heating process in a kiln. Bugs tend to be more resilient to the cold then heat.
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
This conversation on the national level is gong back and forth. There are case studies out there that show both sides. It is all conditional and there are so many factors involved from one place to the next, I dont think there is a right one. Right now, in Iowa, the general consensuses is, that they will survive.
Just a FYI for the HO's here. If you get door knockers, don't let them treat ur stuff, use only those who are called. Also, they will try and sell you treatments on your other trees. EAB is only ash, so your oak, maple, etc, will not be affected. We have a dude going around telling old people that all of their trees are at risk.
Many of my friends disagree with me on this, but don't treat em, if you get EAB remove and replace. The treatments may work but leave nasty chems. The problem I have is the chemicals that make it to the soil.....then to the water. Read all about them and what they do and you will see. Then add in the kid who does it, who is paying attention to that last text he got from his girlfriend instead of what he is doing. If you are going to treat. Only hire a Arborist that actually does it himself. This will help ensure that it is done correctly and not spilled all over the place. Do ur due diligence and make sure you understand fully, what is being put into your tree,yard.....property.
Just a FYI for the HO's here. If you get door knockers, don't let them treat ur stuff, use only those who are called. Also, they will try and sell you treatments on your other trees. EAB is only ash, so your oak, maple, etc, will not be affected. We have a dude going around telling old people that all of their trees are at risk.
Many of my friends disagree with me on this, but don't treat em, if you get EAB remove and replace. The treatments may work but leave nasty chems. The problem I have is the chemicals that make it to the soil.....then to the water. Read all about them and what they do and you will see. Then add in the kid who does it, who is paying attention to that last text he got from his girlfriend instead of what he is doing. If you are going to treat. Only hire a Arborist that actually does it himself. This will help ensure that it is done correctly and not spilled all over the place. Do ur due diligence and make sure you understand fully, what is being put into your tree,yard.....property.
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All I'm saying is there isn't a case study (not that I have seen....would be interested in seeing one if it exists) that actually involves an established EAB infestation that has been eliminated...by anything. I can't help by chuckle a little every time I see a "new" idea...so far I have heard them all. Then I realize that we (tax payers) just paid to study the same thing again.
Can't be said enough times!!!
FLtreeGuyVHTC
ArboristSite Operative
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