prepping for new rings

[Newfie]

apples & oranges???

"I am a Production Engineer at a corporation that produces over 50,000 hydraulic cylinders every year. "


Just curious if maybe we are comparing apples to oranges by comparing hydraulic cylinders to 2 cycle cylinders? I don't know, so I am asking. Seems to my limited knowledge that they are subjected to very different kinds of forces and temperatures so they might be somewhat different?

 

[Tzed250]

Apples to Apples

I wasn't refering to hydraulic cylinders, just providing some background.

 

[bwalker]

I will not continue to argue with some one who obviously doesnt have a clue. In your little world all cylinders are perfactly round. I will ask you one last question that you might be able to clear up for me. How in the world can a structuraly unintact, unsemetric, cylinder stay round when subjected to uneven heating and cooling?

 

[Tzed250]

Get a grip!

You say you refuse to argue, then you have to ask one last question! My world is the same one you live in, chief! Nothing is perfectly cylindrical. That is why things are manufactured with tolerances. Sorry you got so mad and had to get personal. I thought you and I were done when I said you do it your way, and I'll do it mine.

 

[bwalker]

I am not getting personal at all. If this is was the real world Id buy you a beer and sit down and explain how and why you are wrong. Do we agree to disagree?

 

[Tzed250]

agree

I agree to disagree. You did get personal. You called my world little. You have no idea how big it really is. One more thing, people like you don't explain to me how I am wrong. You're just not capable of it.

 

[bwalker]

If you would like me to show you the ere to your ways email me offline. BTW you race a TZ? I got a RZ350 I am building right now.

 

[Tzed250]

Common Ground!

I raced a TZ250W in 1993 and tuned a TZ250J in '90 and '91. I owned 2 RZ350s an RD400 and an RZ500. Put over 13,000 miles on the RZ350s. Good luck with you're 350. The new Cycle World has a "Smart Money" article about the 350 this month. You can save the bandwidth trying to convince me, I have been working on IC engines for 30 years.

"If a sane man enters into an argument with an insane man, you cannot tell the two apart!"

 

[don]

Oh ya baby I liked to see this play out.

Could some one post some facts on here to determine whether a cylinder is round or oval on a chainsaw?

As far as seating the rings. The sealing process should happen anyway since the rings are unseated and the cylinder in unseated to the new rings? Assuming there are no flaws or problems with the cylinder or new set of rings.

 

[bwalker]

Don, I can give you the phone number of the guy I mentioned. He has personaly ported over 50,000 cylinders, worked as a tuner for the GP teams in europe, colaberated with Gordon Blair(the best two stroke accedemic in the world), and worked in R&d for a plating vendor to formula one auto racing teams. E mail me if you would like his number.

 

[bwalker]

As far as seating the rings. The sealing process should happen anyway since the rings are unseated and the cylinder in unseated to the new rings? Assuming there are no flaws or problems with the cylinder or new set of rings.

Puting new rings in a glazed/used cylinder is like taking a shower and then puting your skided up fruit of the looms back on. Deglazing with a simple flex home ensures the cylinder finish is condusive to proper/timely ring seating. The quicker the rings are seated the faster the machine makes full power.

Here is piece of thread from another site. The Author is Eric Gorr.


"All of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers caution against using any type of hone in a plated cylinder. Its not that its an impossible task, its just because it’s a difficult thing to do correctly. Here are some basic rules for honing light scratches, burnt oil, and minor aluminum scuffs on nickel-plated cylinders. 1) Use a ball-hone with a diameter that is 10% smaller than the cylinder bore size, 240-360 grit, and made of aluminum-oxide material. 2) Never ever use a three-shoe stone hone because they will chip the port edges. 3) Coat the cylinder and ball-hone in oil before honing the cylinder. 4) Chuck the ball-hone in a drill and put the hone in the cylinder completely before turning. 5) Run the drill at a slow speed and stroke the hone back and forth in the bore for about ten strokes. Cylinders that are nickel-plated are very hard (83 Rockwell C Scale) so you can’t remove any metal with a ball-hone. I usually hone a cylinder every time I change the piston assembly. Ball-honing polishes down high spots and sharp port edges without damaging the plating. Ball-honing will insure that the piston and rings have a smooth cross-hatched surface to mate with. Kawasaki cylinders use a different bore material and plating method. The tungsten material is very thin and vulnerable. For those cylinders I suggest using a piece of Scotch-Brite to hand strip the cylinder bore of burnt oil. Whenever you hone a cylinder you should clean the cylinder in mineral spirits solvent and then hot soapy water. Spray the cylinder with penetrating oil to displace the water left over from cleaning. "

 

[Tzed250]

Gorr?

Let us take a look at Mr. Gorr's statements.

"cylinders are 83 rockwell so you can't remove metal with a ball hone"
If it won't remove metal then why are you going to put it in the cylinder? If it scratches the surface at all, it removed metal.

"All of the Japanese manufacturers caution against using any type of hone in a plated cylinder"
So now one Mr Gorr knows more than all of the Japanese manufacturers.

"Ball honing polishes down the high spots and sharp port edges"
If these so called high spots did not cause a problem before, they won't cuase one in the future. Is Mr Gorr saying that an aluminum piston that will not even register on the rockwell C scale caused a high spot on the 83 rockwell C plating.

I personally had Eric Gorr contour the cylinder head for my YZ250. When I got it back the head gasket sealing surface was so rough that I had to spend half an hour on a surface plate getting the surface finish back to where it should have been. YZ's use O-rings to seal the heads and need a very smooth surface to do so. Shoddy workmanship. Definately did not look like a head that Pro-Circuit or FMF would have done.

ALL of the rings that I have put in plated cylinders have sealed well. The last ring job on my YZ250 yielded less than 1% leakdown after break in.

I may not have ported 50,000 cylinders, but I know that my methods work.

 

[Tony Snyder]

The war of the hones thread

I think you wound have to be very careful of wearing the hardcoating at the port edges. Risky business. I believe I would let it alone.

It don't seem to me that a cylinder head with that many openings and things torqued to it, and uneven expansion, could posibly stay perfectly cylinderical under running conditions.

I wonder how they hone them originally?

 

[Fish]

wow, you all stay up late too!
I really don't skid up my underwear, is that abnormal?
I am more of a jockey man myself, but have tried Haynes since
Michael Jordon started endorsing them.
I do give them a light honing and a prewash before I use them
though.
I like Mike. He should have got the Oscar for Spacejam.


I know that this is not overly relevant, but most of the
talk on this thread is not either.

Or is it?........

 

[Crofter]

BW some special cylinder geometry that allows an engine to operate a bit closer to the brink of seizure would almost undoubtedly result in tradeoffs in piston and ring wear. I doubt it would be acceptable in a day to day chain saw. Anyway most of the advise seems to warn of more problems than benefits in using a power hone in a good condition used chainsaw cylinder like the original poster referred to.

Frank

 

[stihltech]

tuners

My tuner is smarter than yours is.

This started out as putting new rings in a chainsaw. I don't give a hoot about racing bikes.
Put the rings in, scuff the cylinder up lightly with anything, and they will seat.
Nuff said.

 

[Fish]

I'm still a non-scuff man. Nuff said.
Jockeys are what real loggers wear, briefs not boxers.

 

[bwalker]

Time to eat a little crow.

I have checked through my papers and it appears I was wrong on the cylinder issue. It was pistons that are not round. Guess I cant mix beveraging with internet surfing anymore. TZ, I hope you except my appology. Regards Ben

 

[stihltech]

Fish

Exception noted.

 

[Tzed250]

No Apology Needed

No apology needed Bwalker. I hope your RZ350 project goes really well. I loved my RZ350s and you will have a good time with it.