Pricing removals and pruning

[david1332]

So I've been doing climbing, pruning and removals for a few months now ( not my main business but I want it to be about 25-40% of my work, I'm a landscaper but absolutely love the tree business) and I would like some tips to help me price my work a little better.

I'm having trouble giving SMART well THOUGHT OUT prices on tree trimming and removal. I still get a good amount of those jobs ( about 1/2) but I want to benite confident in my pricing. At the moment I'm using sort of a lick and stick approach based on how difficult I see the tree being. Please help me out and give me some ways to get my numbers together, thanks!!

Just some info for my tree work: I climb all trees myself, I usually have 1 or sometimes 2 ground guys with me to help with rigging. I have an echo cs-400( 18 inch), husky 338xpt( 14 inch) and a brand new Stihl 441-c with a 25 inch bar which is by far the baddest saw I've ever used . I don't have a chipper or stump grinder ( I sub that out) and I put most debris in my dual axle 6x12 ( costs me $30 to unload at my buddies yard) I've only been climbing for a few months but have all the gear I need to do it safely and have read several books and watched hundreds of videos and am pretty good with knots. I have several friends who own tree companies that help me out with advice and in a bind.

 

[Pelorus]

Fwiw, pruning generally takes me longer to do, than the allotted time I figured it would take me to do it.
The limbs seem to multiply and get larger or something.

 

[Tree94]

I think it depends on your area a lot and the competition....

but what works best for me in MY AREA is usually estimating the total time the job will take (drive time included), and multiplying that by what I want to make per hr. Which is usually like 65-75$ per hr.
then I add on an extra 50$ for dump fee/gas/gatorades.. etc..

Now if im doing a huge removal over a house that's gonna require a lot of rigging (something not many people have the skill of doing)
I up that price a few hundred more dollars or so..
I also up the price a bit if there's thorns..

that's what I do..
It keeps my prices very competitive in MY AREA
(lots of Mexican landscapers in my area so if someone's comparing quotes, its tough to get top dollar.)

 

[Tree94]

I might add that im a small company whos equipment is all paid off.
If you are a company with 250k in loans & overhead, that might not work for you....

 

[BC WetCoast]

I've seen it done many ways.
Generally, decide on your target hourly rate and then estimate how many hours it will take you. Our target hourly rate is $90.

If you have a bucket it will take you less time, so the bid will be lower. It evens out over time.

I've seen guys double their estimate for jobs they don't want and get them anyway.

I've seen guys only use two prices either a half day or whole day.

The biggest loser jobs I've seen is when the salesman did it by feel. I think you need to be a little thoughtful in your approach.

I talked to one guy at an arborist conference and he would count the number of paces the groundie would have to walk per drag and then estimate the number of drags.

I would be very wary about bidding to meet your market. If you're losing money just to match the market, what's the point of being in the business. Even the most expensive companies get work, so work on your sales technique so you can justify a higher price to the customer. Then underpromise and overdeliver.

 

[ATH]

It just takes time doing it to know how long it is going to take. Then you bid based on how long the job takes...kinda like the guys said above. The one slight change I'd add to what @BC Westcoast said: If you have a bucket, your hourly rate would be higher (to cover the cost of equipment) so to me your bid should be about the same without or without a bucket. One takes more money but less time while the other takes more time with a lower investment. (but not total disagreement... because labor does cost more than equipment...)

 

[ATH]

Onto the next thought: So....you have been learning a lot about climbing, knots, ropes, etc... But how about tree biology and proper pruning techniques? Maybe you already are good to go there - but I see a lot of people get so caught up in climbing, they seem to forget that point is to take care of a tree - and you can't do that without knowing about trees.

 

[david1332]

I've been studying A lot on proper pruning as well. I've gotten shrubs and ornamental trees down solid. Now I trying to learn how to prune larger trees like oaks. I can prune for safety no problem. I just need to learn how to Pune for aesthetics on the outer limbs( I don't have a bucket or lift)

 

[Tree94]

Onto the next thought: So....you have been learning a lot about climbing, knots, ropes, etc... But how about tree biology and proper pruning techniques? Maybe you already are good to go there - but I see a lot of people get so caught up in climbing, they seem to forget that point is to take care of a tree - and you can't do that without knowing about trees.

I'm guilty about that, I need to do some more research..
Do you suggest any books or online content that would be helpful in learning about tree biology?

 

[ATH]

Search "Ed Gilman". He is at University of Florida and has tons of great info online. His book "Illustrated guide to pruning" would be a good one to get.

Shigo's stuff is older...but still relevant.

ISA's Building Blocks of Arboriculture is a little more dull reading, but very important stuff. Their "treesaregood.org" website also has lots of good basic information.

I don't know what other states are like, but Ohio ISA's Tree Care Conference is very good year after year. There are agencies such as Extension and the Division of Forestry who also put on a host of programming that is very helpful. Yes, it all takes another day, but very rarely have I left feeling like it was a wasted day. You quickly figure out who really knows their sruff AND is a good speaker and target your time to where they will be for new topics.

 

[david1332]

I've seen it done many ways.
Generally, decide on your target hourly rate and then estimate how many hours it will take you. Our target hourly rate is $90.

If you have a bucket it will take you less time, so the bid will be lower. It evens out over time.

I've seen guys double their estimate for jobs they don't want and get them anyway.

I've seen guys only use two prices either a half day or whole day.

The biggest loser jobs I've seen is when the salesman did it by feel. I think you need to be a little thoughtful in your approach.

I talked to one guy at an arborist conference and he would count the number of paces the groundie would have to walk per drag and then estimate the number of drags.

I would be very wary about bidding to meet your market. If you're losing money just to match the market, what's the point of being in the business. Even the most expensive companies get work, so work on your sales technique so you can justify a higher price to the customer. Then underpromise and overdeliver.

Is that $90/ hour/ man or just $90/hr period?
That seem low to me. Although I do typically tend to be a bit expensive, but I'm also in Jersey, and won't climb trees and risk my life for chump change

 

[BC WetCoast]

$90/manhour

2 man crew -> $180/hr

That's our monthly target, so to compensate for down time, underbids etc, we usually shoot for $110/man hour.

 

[david1332]

$90/manhour

2 man crew -> $180/hr

That's our monthly target, so to compensate for down time, underbids etc, we usually shoot for $110/man hour.

That's not horrible then. Then you figure in dump fees, gas, etc. right?

 

[Jed1124]

So I've been doing climbing, pruning and removals for a few months now ( not my main business but I want it to be about 25-40% of my work, I'm a landscaper but absolutely love the tree business) and I would like some tips to help me price my work a little better.

I'm having trouble giving SMART well THOUGHT OUT prices on tree trimming and removal. I still get a good amount of those jobs ( about 1/2) but I want to benite confident in my pricing. At the moment I'm using sort of a lick and stick approach based on how difficult I see the tree being. Please help me out and give me some ways to get my numbers together, thanks!!

Just some info for my tree work: I climb all trees myself, I usually have 1 or sometimes 2 ground guys with me to help with rigging. I have an echo cs-400( 18 inch), husky 338xpt( 14 inch) and a brand new Stihl 441-c with a 25 inch bar which is by far the baddest saw I've ever used . I don't have a chipper or stump grinder ( I sub that out) and I put most debris in my dual axle 6x12 ( costs me $30 to unload at my buddies yard) I've only been climbing for a few months but have all the gear I need to do it safely and have read several books and watched hundreds of videos and am pretty good with knots. I have several friends who own tree companies that help me out with advice and in a bind.

Dave, being that you are in the town that I grew up in, I can give you one really good piece of advice. I'm down there to see my folks at least 4-5 times a year and I have to say I have not seen any good pruning work at all. Topping and more topping is all I see. Any of the old school guys I know of in that town (I can't speak for all of them) are doing some really bad work. Learn how to properly prune large trees and prune them well, separating yourself from the butchers.
Also, most folks in your town are basing who they select on price alone, so you have an up hill battle if your going to try to get the proper rate for tree care. The prices I've heard in your area are definitely on the low side.
Good luck, learn good arborculture practices, and please bring those practices to my old home town.

 

[hseII]

OP,
Thank You for starting this thread.

 

[david1332]

Dave, being that you are in the town that I grew up in, I can give you one really good piece of advice. I'm down there to see my folks at least 4-5 times a year and I have to say I have not seen any good pruning work at all. Topping and more topping is all I see. Any of the old school guys I know of in that town (I can't speak for all of them) are doing some really bad work. Learn how to properly prune large trees and prune them well, separating yourself from the butchers.
Also, most folks in your town are basing who they select on price alone, so you have an up hill battle if your going to try to get the proper rate for tree care. The prices I've heard in your area are definitely on the low side.
Good luck, learn good arborculture practices, and please bring those practices to my old home town.

Yeah I hear ya man!!
I get calls to remove trees all. The. Time. That have died because of overpruning and that have been topped. I get a call atleast twice a month asking me to top a tree. I explain to them right away that it's the worst thing you can do for a tree, normally I get those jobs because I show knowledge. And yeah prices are definitely being hammered down by low ballers. People that will do a $1200 dead tree near lines for $600 kill the industry price. But I still get atleast 45% of my tree calls to turn into jobs.

How do I prune and shape the outside and canopy without a bucket or lift?

 

[jefflovstrom]

I've been studying A lot on proper pruning as well. I've gotten shrubs and ornamental trees down solid. Now I trying to learn how to prune larger trees like oaks. I can prune for safety no problem. I just need to learn how to Pune for aesthetics on the outer limbs( I don't have a bucket or lift)

I do not understand your term, ' prune for aesthetics',
Actually, I get it,,,looks great!,,pretty!,,,
You do not need a bucket or a lift,,you just need training,,
Most mature trees that do not have targets, do not need pruning other than some crown clean and structure pruning.
Jeff,,,,,,
I may have more to say,,

 

[Jed1124]

Yeah I hear ya man!!
I get calls to remove trees all. The. Time. That have died because of overpruning and that have been topped. I get a call atleast twice a month asking me to top a tree. I explain to them right away that it's the worst thing you can do for a tree, normally I get those jobs because I show knowledge. And yeah prices are definitely being hammered down by low ballers. People that will do a $1200 dead tree near lines for $600 kill the industry price. But I still get atleast 45% of my tree calls to turn into jobs.

How do I prune and shape the outside and canopy without a bucket or lift?

Maybe instead of jumping in head first with your own business and trying to go the route of being self taught, get a job with a good company and learn from seasoned pros. Aspen Tree Experts is right in Jackson (I know a little far) and is probably the best tree care company in the the state.
Learn from the best, then take those skills and make them your own.
On a side note, I can't believe how many companies down there actually advertise topping, like it's some kind of badge of honor.
The other issue you have to deal with is a lot of illegals with no insurance. Hard to compete with them.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Yeah I hear ya man!
How do I prune and shape the outside and canopy without a bucket or lift?

Trees have their own shape,
are you a landscaper trying to cut in to the tree biz?
What kind of spikes do you wear?
Jeff

 

[david1332]

Maybe instead of jumping in head first with your own business and trying to go the route of being self taught, get a job with a good company and learn from seasoned pros. Aspen Tree Experts is right in Jackson (I know a little far) and is probably the best tree care company in the the state.
Learn from the best, then take those skills and make them your own.
On a side note, I can't believe how many companies down there actually advertise topping, like it's some kind of badge of honor.
The other issue you have to deal with is a lot of illegals with no insurance. Hard to compete with them.

I would but I already have a decent size landscaping company, I make way too much money owning my own company to ever go back to working hourly for another company. But I still work with other companies that I trust in my area to teach me how to do complicated removals