Proper Forest Management

[redprospector]

Redprospector:

Suppress is spelled with two p's.

One definition of facetious is: Playfully jocular; humorous: as in facetious remarks.

Did you check your sense of humor at the keyboard?

"Environmentalist have Redwood decks."

Everyone knows they don't go beyond Cedar Siding.

Sorry smokechase II,
I'm right in the middle of this crap, and more involved than I'd really like to be. I guess I did check my sense of humor at the keyboard, but I'm trying to get it back.
Oh, and my spelling has never been worth a crap.

Andy

 

[smokechase II]

humor

humeres.

Trivia:

I work on a million acre district.
We certainly don't have our act together for complete fuels work.
To fix a hundred year problem on a large area in not really possible.

We did have a six acre fire 3 days ago that burned right up into a small 8 acre sale that we horse logged then thinned and handpiled just a couple years back. This sale was purposely set up to protect a home.
The adjacent homeowner(s) is saying that our clean-up saved their home. That may be an exaggeration, but that work certainly made it easier and safer for the fire fighters.

What a great place, they have elk on their lawn occasionally during the winter. The owners would come out and say thanks to the YCC or Youth Challenge kids/cadets and give them a pop, (don't tell anyone).

There are several reasons on why logging is a common sense thing to do. For me in the fuels world, it is the easiest way to return the land to a condition that is close to historic and is ecologically sound.
It costs us a little over double to thin and hand pile etc an area that hasn't been logged versus one that has.

 

[Gologit]

I think that's a hell of an idea, put it on the comic page.
My job as an American Citizen is to stand up and raise hell when government is being stupid. I don't care how much money is brought into local economies, that is a temporary thing. The effects of a catostrophic fire last a long dam time. It's not about the economy.

Andy

Very true. Every year we do burn salvage somewhere. We finished one last year on the Tahoe N.F. that took two seasons to complete. Several million board feet. Timber that should have been harvested over a number of years, and many years at that, was cut and hauled out in just two seasons. I understand the need for burn salvage and I support it but it's tough to watch that much timber that, harvested over time according to normal growth schedules, would support several logging economies for a number of years.
We've let our government timber ground go for way too long with no reasonable amount of practical care. Now the people in charge of the problem are in a panic driven mode for seeking solutions. Theres a lesson here. What they're starting to do now...thinning and fuel reduction and controlled burning is good. But they have to keep it up...it has to be on-going. Otherwise working for the Forest Service must feel like hiring on as a crew member on the Titanic...after it hit the iceburg.

 

[smokechase II]

United States Titanic Service

"Otherwise working for the Forest Service must feel like hiring on as a crew member on the Titanic...after it hit the iceberg."

That was good. There is a bit of truth to that analogy.

In the defense of the average employee of the FS, we're just the ping pong ball being batted around.

Right now, the best players are on the side of the don't start that saw group. Congress, courts and the fear of those two rule our lives. If the President can't put together a package to smooth things out, who are we to correct the world’s problems?

Got time for a story, or two?

A District Ranger on a Forest closer to the Atlantic decides to get some cut out. He's tired of the BS and decides to use a CE, (simple piece of environmental paperwork), to run his timber program.
That a______e. A Judge looks at that illegal mess and throughout the US that simple level was shut down for a year or so and now it isn't simple even if we're doing a simple project.
A big problem is the Forest Service not holding it's Line Officers fully accountable. My opinion would be that we should have terminated employment in this case.

We had a mid-sized fire locally, did the regular paperwork and went to court in Portland just as expected. This is a given. The reason for throwing this salvage sale out was that we failed to put in our paperwork a document on the effects of retardant that was a series of opinions on where research was needed. Not a scientific work that had been subject to peer review. We did have it in an appendix that was included with every copy we published. This decision was handed down in a courtroom filled with rich dark woods from the rainforests of the world. The power of arrogance is a rich elixir.

Some of the goals I had to get done before my retirement I've given up on. I wanted to be part of all the projects to clean up the brush & thin the trees around the antennaes and lookouts on our District. We're skipping two because of the Spotted Owl, Northwest Forest Plan difficulties. Just too expensive/time consuming and when your government is at war, your part of the federal budget takes the hit as the military is and should be the priority.

I'm going to be able to say I told you so in the local paper in 2 or 7 years when they burn.

But until then, where is my life boat?

 

[Gologit]

Smokechase ll...That was excellent. I don't have the answers. I wish I did. The only solution I see is a complete shift in priorities and that has to come from the top down. You and I both know that won't happen in the near future.
We can't give up though, and we shouldn't be silent either. There have to be people ready and alert to keep the self-appointed guardians of their own private agenda from running completely over us. Maybe that's us wrinkled gray haired old farts who've been in the woods for long enough to know, really know, what's happening.
Maybe someday they'll have their way and there won't be any more logging. I hope that day never comes but even if I knew it was coming tomorrow I wouldn't back down and I wouldn't let them have their victory without knowing they had to fight for every bit of it.
You hang on to the Titanic as long as you can...even if the ship is sinking you can do some good before it does. And we need all the people we can get like than. Bob

 

[redprospector]

I think our problem in this part of the country isn't with fire, or insects, but with our own apathy. Of course fire and insects are a big part of the problem.
As or right now (according to the USFS) in the Lincoln National Forest, we have 3300 acres that are totaly dead due to the "Fir Looper", there is another 7000 acres infected, and another 20,000 acres at risk.
At one of the meetings I attended it got pretty ugly for a while. Some people were actually taking a position that sounded very similar to what smokechase II was saying facetiously (hense my jumping to conclusions). Others were calling the FS a useless bunch of @%$#%^&^$%. I had to ask during the meeting, how many had called or written their congressmen while the environmental lobbiest were pushing for all the regulations, and legislation we are now under? Not one person said that they had, so I told them they were more worthless than the FS. At least the FS is doing all that they are allowed to do.
I think we all have to stand up and make a stink. We have to quit being the silent majority.

Andy

 

[smokechase II]

Smokey

Red:

Smokey came from the Lincoln NF.
Sacred ground.

I was on the Scott Able fire there in 2000.
Boy is that a windy forest with a lot of fires.

You don't have to answer this, but how do those people convince themselves that all those catastrophic burn scars are acceptable?

Logging, if it is thinning from below, leaving the best trees, not designed to make mill owners wealthy, is just common sense.

Those other things, jobs and materials we can use, are important too.

{My wife and I hope to build a home in a couple years. If we get a deck we want to go with one of those composite products that is say plastic and wood. It's an environmental decision.}

 

[elliott]

I work for a ranch in northwestern Colorado. We border the Routt National Forest. We have a couple hundred acres or so of beautiful forest on the property- logepole, spruce, fir, and aspen, but predominately logepole pine. But probably seventy-five percent (at least) of the pine has been hit by beetles. It's a shame. We have some loggers coming this summer; we're gonna tell them to just take it all (pine). The National Forest looks just as bad. But nobody's taking that stuff.

What's worse, in my opinion, is all the downed timber. I'm not exaggerating here: I can't hardly walk through the forested areas of the National Forest bordering our property because of all the downed timber.

I won't admit that I've been taking material (downed timber and dead standing) from the National Forest side of the fence for the buck'n'rail wood fence that we're building around the property. I won't say that on this public forum because a spy might tell on me for cleaning up the National Forest and for decreasing the fuel load on the ground, and I might get in trouble. Shame on me for caring about our forests and for trying to actively do something to help the forest! However, in the big picture of all of this, I realize that my efforts are basically worthless. Although, with every rail that I hypothetically cut from the NF, I think "This is one less tree that will burn and add fuel to the fire", and that makes me feel a little better. Because I know the fire is comin'.....And I'm scared..... 'Cause it's gonna' be big.

 

[smokechase II]

Inquire about

Elliot:

You might want to inquire very discretely through a disguised channel if the local Forest/District has a program where neighboring landowners can "clean-up" adjacent NF Lands. We do that here under simple signed agreements.

This may or may not exist there.

This could get complicated. On the assumption that you will be discovered eventually, you might want to make this legal now.

Caution: We do have managers that can go ballistic over theft.
They would view the difference between piling slash and taking fence material as cause for citing you.

With regard to Lodgepole;
Old growth LP is something that doesn't really exist. (Higher elevations in Colorado have older LP than here in Oregon, so depending on your location, you may have to adjust these numbers up). LP in Central Oregon usually starts their beetle events at 80-110 years. Lodgepoles success is due to several things; 1) prolific, 2) does well in wetter settings and 3) is very hardy in colder areas. LP's primary weakness is its thin bark. Insects and lack of insulation from fire.

The death of a LP should not be an extended religious event. They were meant to live fast and die.

The 'logging' of LP selectively to convert your stand back to what nature intended for that site is a great idea. I would not remove it from as many acres as you have. But I might well drop it back to being only 10-20% of whatever component it makes up of your trees.

LP was killed by fire on a much higher rate than almost all other species in the Western US. (The mercenary job I do has converted your forest to an unnatural condition. Fire cleans up not just the brush and slash, but also the tree species that are not best suited for a setting.)
Aspen, above the ground, are killed even more easily than LP, but they regenerate from their roots. That established root system on a fast growing tree like Aspen is that species greatest strength.

Aspen do not readily burn, (stands of aspen or predominately Aspen are used by fire fighters in Canada and Alaska as safety zones in all but the most extreme fire conditions. I should caveat this with Aspen stands are also typically wetter and that is also part of those safety zone reasons, not just the chemical make up of that tree not 'wanting' to burn).

If your forest can be converted largely to Aspen in its wetter spots. Outstanding.

Consider Western Larch. It does not burn with the vigor of Pine or Fir. Often we thin ridges of all but the Larch for fire lines in the future. They work if spotting conditions are reasonable. It is almost as pretty as Aspen too.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Many different species and try for fire resistant ones. Contact an extension agent for preferred trees/brush locally.

All the Best.

 

[smokechase II]

The purpose of Lodgepole

Lodgepole can help other trees get their start. In a ticket of 5 foot tall LP regen other trees can get their start. Those species that are not as hardy to the cold. The umbrella that the LP ticket creates protects those other tree seedlings and they can eventually overtake or just outlast the LP.

Dead LP jim-jams provide habitat for many critters. Housing.

I would suggest that with lack of action on NF lands generally you 'let' the Forest Service provide that habitat and make your forest healthy.

But those wildlife areas have their place overall. Nature didn't underburn peacefully every acre every year. Random mosaics of vegetation make for the best forest when viewing large large acreages.

 

[redprospector]

Red:

Smokey came from the Lincoln NF.
Sacred ground.

I was on the Scott Able fire there in 2000.
Boy is that a windy forest with a lot of fires.

You don't have to answer this, but how do those people convince themselves that all those catastrophic burn scars are acceptable?

Logging, if it is thinning from below, leaving the best trees, not designed to make mill owners wealthy, is just common sense.

Those other things, jobs and materials we can use, are important too.

{My wife and I hope to build a home in a couple years. If we get a deck we want to go with one of those composite products that is say plastic and wood. It's an environmental decision.}

Smokey was found on a fire around Capitan, NM, not far north of here.
I worked the Scott Able fire from start to finish, I was the last faller to go at the end of rehab. We may have actually met then, who knows.
I met a lot of good people on that fire.

I'll answer anything that I know, but I'd be lying if I said I had any idea how all the burn scars are acceptable. In my opinion, they don't find it acceptable, they are just appathetic.
They have just started a "Stewardship" program with the Mescallero Indian Reservation, it's looking pretty good and is a small shot in the arm to the logging industry, but it's not a big enough area to really do a lot of good.

Logging all but died in about 91 thanks to the "Mexican Spotted Owl". They say that the Sacramento Mtns. are the "stronghold" for the Mex. Spotted Owl. These mountains have been logged for over 100 years, you'd think common sence would dictate that logging might be good for the owl.

I've been looking at those composite 2x6's for a deck myself.

Andy

 

[romeo]

During the Scott Able fire I was working at Napa auto parts. I sold probably 100 air filters, a bunch of catalytic converters and exhaust pipe, and a ton of hydraulic stuff, I probably spent 50 hours making hydraulic hoses. That fire was fairly close to where I live now.

After that fire, they tied up the cleanup in red tape. White Sands Forest Products finally went out of business on that one. By the time the forest service said they could go in for the lumber it had been too long and the trees were useless to the mill.

Also, while that fire was going on. I was cooking far a BBQ at my folks place down in the foot hills. I think I did about 40 racks of baby backs over a mesquite pit that was 4 foot by 10 foot. The slurry planes flight plan started getting closer through the day too us until about every 15 min. a plane would come over about 50 feet above and turn sideways to get a look. I think they were starving that day, at least they didn't bomb us.

I have been thinking about a redwood deck carpeted in baby seal, its just so dang soft on your feet.

 

[slowp]

Maybe that's us wrinkled gray haired old farts who've been in the woods for long enough to know, really know, what's happening.

Just got my computer out of the shop. Here's my 2 cents worth. One of the problems I see is that very few FS people get out into the woods anymore. We used to joke about "Virtual Forestry"--doing it all on the computer using GIS, we'd never have to go out again. Sadly enough, it has become reality.
If it shows it as being steep and unstable on GIS, then steep and unstable it is, regardless of what one of us poor folks says is really out there. During the fall, winter, early spring, there's 2 of us here who regularly get out into the woods. One winter day, I was out on a sale, and all these FS rigs started going by. I told the logger that the computers and phones must be out, and it wasn't raining. Sure enough, the computers and phones were out. The people who are doing all the "planning" just don't get out and see what the big picture really is out there. Guess they don't have time? Maybe they melt in the rain? It is a sad situation.

 

[smokechase II]

remote appeals

Part of the district I work on in Central Oregon is extremely dry.
It just barely gets enough moisture to support pine trees. 8 inches a year is a good year for rain.

There is one stream that disappears into the ground on a thousand sections of land. There is not even one inch of any other stream flow. Nada.

We've had appeals that state we haven't adequately addressed riparian areas. This in 40,000 acre tracts that do not have one single riparian area and have not for many thousands of years.

Not only is the FS doing forestry with a mouse and keyboard, but those that hassle us haven't made it out into the woods.

(One of those that appeal us was "Lionel Treepanier". We think it was an East Coast professor teaching his students how.)

 

[clearance]

As I read this thread, I sense the anger and frustration, I know what you are speaking of. We could write volumes about forest mismanagement on both sides of the border I am sure. The sad thing here is that most of it was predicted many years back, by the man himself, H.R. MacMillan. H.R. was the biggest logger and mill owner in B.C., he was also the provincial forester when he was younger. This guy was genius, he made a list of fifty recomendations and predictions in 1956, the government ignored them and they have come true. He said that the forest service would become politicized and useless, huge corporations would take the good wood and abuse the land, the independents would be crushed and become just sharecroppers, etc. He wanted no raw log exports from our province and he wanted all government foresters to work in the bush for two weeks a year so they didn't lose touch with reality. Fat chance, the forestry service are just cock toys for the big outfits and they crucify the little guys, when they actually get out of the office that is. The tree huggers and do-gooders in the cities influence decisions and are constantly trying to stop logging, with the support of the media, it is just pathetic. Anyways, don't let the bastards get you down.

 

[MS-310]

Smoke chaser II,

As I know dont they call in people from other states to help with a big fire?

I know some of are DNR fire fighters go. I would really like to get in to that.
Can you point me the right way.

Thanks

 

[tek9tim]

Wow. The things you miss when you go on assignment to New Mexico.

Smokechase, I like what you said about the appropriate species for the location and appropriate expectations of the species. I can't really add anything to that. In fact, if it seemed the least bit foreign to anyone, they need to read it again.

The district I work on has a lot of lodgepole on it, and is going through a big beetle infestation right now as well. Turns out they had one back about 80 years as well (before the effects of fire suppression and certainly before logging was shut down) which was simply before the memory of anyone living. It just seems so shocking to see things die. People cannot accept it, whether its natural or not. Bugs kill trees. Fire kills trees. Usually there's a reason for it. Watch a ground fire burn up to a tree with mistletoe. It'll torch it out. Trees that have weaknesses to fire get killed when a fire moves through, leaving the trees that are resistant.

On a side note, from my little bit of time here in NM, it does seem like they have a little less of a focus on fuel reduction than we do up north.

MS-310: if you work for a federal agency, you will have much better odds of going out of state than if you work for a state agency. (like the DNR) The benefits are also better with a federal agency, although the California Department of Forestry does have better pay and benefits.

 

[redprospector]

It doesn't bother me so much to see things die, it's a part of the natural process. What bothers me is to waste a resorce, because we, as a nation have sat on our hands while the "tree huggers" dictate what can & can't be done about anything.

In the Lincoln NF there was a defoliater that came through in the 1920's, they salvage logged the area. In the early 50's there was another case of defoliators, they did areal spraying, stopped the attack, and salvaged the dead trees. Now it's back, we can't spray, we can't thin, we can't salvage (at least not untill all the timber is of no use to anyone), we can't do anything. If the "tree huggers" think it's so beautiful here, maybe they weren't doing such a bad job here through the 50's.

I've actually had someone tell me that they think we should all leave the forest and let it return to a wilderness state. Where the hell are we supposed to go? Even the cities were a wilderness at one time.

I've been asked to speak at a meeting on this next week, so if you don't hear from me after next Wednesday, I may have been lynched.

tek9tim, what part of NM are you in?

Andy

 

[slowp]

You might point out (although I haven't seen your area, not even on a computer, ar ar) that by clearcutting a few 20 acre units of bug killed lodgepole, you are creating safety zones for the firefighters to run to when the rest of it burns up! :greenchainsaw:

 

[redprospector]

The area that is infected isn't Lodge Pole, it's mixed conifers. Doug Fir, White Fir, Spruce, and some Ponderosa pine. There are a lot of these trees 40" dbh and over. Of course we are not allowed to cut anything over 24" dbh.

I'd post some pic's, but my camera is lost. Maybe I can get Romeo to post some.


Andy