Trdoldtreecutter
ArboristSite Member
Lol, that’s funny. I really don’t mind they stopped a lot of the federal logging in the high country here. Not a very good grow cycle and it is neat to be able to find a big pumpkin if a person feels the need.
Protect The Second Growth
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There are still a hand full of oversize mills left, and around here they pay better then everyone else. The computer mills here don't like anything over 30" but they hammer through the wood in a big damned hurry, SP Shelton was getting over 200 trucks a day winter before last.
Export, 8" here, domestic 5"
Mange can kiss my ass, especially the Tacoma yard, janky set up from the gate in, trucks lining up on a blind corner in the street, one scaler that ONLY scales on the truck, or by weight, both are crap without the occasional rollout to keep em honest. then you have to weave through their yard, dodging morons on fork lifts and 20 2x4's hanging out of piles at eye level, cross the same street you were parked on earlier to get to the trailer loader, that may or may not work. Not to mention its Tacoma... which for me means going through Seattle, or accros the Narrows bridge... which as a bridge is neat, but as a toll bridge ******* lame. (note: all toll bridges on state highways are ******* lame)
Trdoldtreecutter
ArboristSite Member
Lol, well, manke does take just about everything which helps clean up some landings and make use of otherwise useless wood. It does feel like robbery when you send them some big rough logs though
Formark does the same thing, but at least the yards make sense, and you don't fear for you life driving through.
Or we have a couple smaller mills up here that take everything including cotton weed, (**** they even pay decent for the cotton weeds lol) same deal though, the scale is often less then desired. But the wood isn't choking up the landing, and you at least don't have to pay to get rid of it.
HuskyP
ArboristSite Lurker
Here in PA we have very little old growth, and our forests are incredible. Sometimes we thin the big stuff to let the third growth come up strong, otherwise it can quite literally die as it starts to lose the battle for sunlight. They become more vulnerable to disease. Such a complex issue....
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
Tried to do the "Grown in" program here and was told it didn't apply to trees other than Christmas trees or fruit trees.
Neither of which exist to any degree as far as I know.
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
My brother got my parents called to school many years ago for trying to rationalize with an eco hippie.
He was called "The Birdman" and he'd come to school every year to show some birds and talk about the environment.
He was going on a rant about snowmobiles being horrible for the environment, a waste of fuel, etc.
Snowmobiling is huge in Maine.
My brother told Mr. Birdman if burning fuel was so bad, why was he driving a big van and not using a bike.
well, I certainly didn't import trees to cut down and then haul to a local mill, so I don't understand their logic...
Besides its mostly hilarious, folks like to shop for food locally, but gods forbid if they get a 2x4 that was sustainably harvested 10 miles from their back door.
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
No idea. Was told it applied to farmers only.
But they are fine with people that harvest flowers using it. Also bee products.
I use it anyway, they can kiss my ass.
newforest
ArboristSite Operative
A few random notes from reading this thread
With the Forest Circus, one of their flavors of -ologist is Archaeologist. And one of the things the Archaeologist can hold up a timber sale for is evidence of a late 19th/early 20th century logging camp. I think this is used in a dictionary under the entry for “irony.” Cribbed from a USFS sign at such a site: “Do not disturb remains of logging camp buildings not yet excavated, so that we can preserve the chance to better understand the logging era in this area.”
Chip-&-saw was mentioned for small Spruce. There is some hope where I live in northern Michigan that a brand new mill of that type (actually all chip, no saw) can be used as an outlet for never harvested Xmas tree plantations that dot the landscape some. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like the Blue Spruce can quite reach even the small size minimum before their non-local status makes them succumb to various local Spruce pathogens, leaving a useless mess. Which is quite a bummer for everyone really. But what interests me about the new mill is that I heard recently that the real reason it was built is IKEA’s thirst for SFI or FSC certified wood (I can never keep those 2 straight) - but any 2nd or 3rd growth monoculture can be certified. Our State Forests have plenty in that area, ironically thanks to an Endangered Species (a bird), which only nests in dense teenaged conifer. So to save the bird we must use industrial Forestry techniques including herbicide on the deciduous and the result is more chip board for the Swedish furniture kits and everyone gets warm fuzzies all around.
But it never ceases to amaze me how often I hear the word IKEA in random Forestry scuttlebut.
I am curious about the “Capitol Forest” mentioned in the Original Post. Just the name makes me think it would be near the State Capitol, and thus probably near so many politicians and NGO peeps that management of it must be a major headache for the folks on the ground in that one. Just a hunch.
With the Forest Circus, one of their flavors of -ologist is Archaeologist. And one of the things the Archaeologist can hold up a timber sale for is evidence of a late 19th/early 20th century logging camp. I think this is used in a dictionary under the entry for “irony.” Cribbed from a USFS sign at such a site: “Do not disturb remains of logging camp buildings not yet excavated, so that we can preserve the chance to better understand the logging era in this area.”
Chip-&-saw was mentioned for small Spruce. There is some hope where I live in northern Michigan that a brand new mill of that type (actually all chip, no saw) can be used as an outlet for never harvested Xmas tree plantations that dot the landscape some. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like the Blue Spruce can quite reach even the small size minimum before their non-local status makes them succumb to various local Spruce pathogens, leaving a useless mess. Which is quite a bummer for everyone really. But what interests me about the new mill is that I heard recently that the real reason it was built is IKEA’s thirst for SFI or FSC certified wood (I can never keep those 2 straight) - but any 2nd or 3rd growth monoculture can be certified. Our State Forests have plenty in that area, ironically thanks to an Endangered Species (a bird), which only nests in dense teenaged conifer. So to save the bird we must use industrial Forestry techniques including herbicide on the deciduous and the result is more chip board for the Swedish furniture kits and everyone gets warm fuzzies all around.
But it never ceases to amaze me how often I hear the word IKEA in random Forestry scuttlebut.
I am curious about the “Capitol Forest” mentioned in the Original Post. Just the name makes me think it would be near the State Capitol, and thus probably near so many politicians and NGO peeps that management of it must be a major headache for the folks on the ground in that one. Just a hunch.
it's more then a few miles from the state Capitol, Olympia, but on the Olympic peninsula...
less then a days drive but away from any sort of civilization (that includes Shelton) so politicians are unlikely to visit or even care
It's a large forest and part of it is rather close to Olympia. My friends who live close to Olympia do a lot of hiking in the Capitol forest because it is quite close to them.
Vanguard
ArboristSite Lurker
So much to say here, going down the rabbit hole. Grays Harbor native who started life in Artic down into Aberdeen through Cosi. Dad had me in high school, setting chokers on a few Old Growth but mostly second growth in the 70's, then off to wrenching trucks for Mayer Bros because he had a family to think about. The logging boom was coming to an end in the 80's for the harbor, layoffs were imenent. Old Growth getting more scarce, Second Growth was in and still coming and Third Growth on it's way for harvest within the next few decades, if I remember things right. Also can't remember if Japan was buying less logs, getting ready to sell them back to us as well, or maybe I am mistaken.
Dad gets retrained after getting remarried with 5 kids now to think about, gets a college degree, moving us to Thurston County where his new career was. Capitol Forest, a hop skip and a jump away, Ol' Stompin' Grounds back in my later half of childhood. All the hiking, camping, wood cuttin', ridin', shootin', and hunting a child could do...still didn't feel like the harbor though, and I always knew Thurston County had a funny smell about it. Which now reminds me, Evergreen College started to get popular... protests and activism was more evident - "make sure to spike them trees after you hug it".
By the time high school was over, the Spotted Owl Hoax was believed to be reality by those that drank the kool-aid. Yet, I don't remember any activist or protestors raising hell about my Great Uncle who probably killed more bear recorded by any other man, that number around 3,500 or more I want to recall. Have one small black bear rug I slept on as a kid growing up, now in the garage waiting to be hung. Thank the forest service and timber companies for hiring such a bounty hunter that Bobba-fett couldn't hold a candle too. His bounty only collected after keeping Smoky Bear from damaging big timber, later to get diseased and rotten if Smoky got his way.
Mother nature the best logger out there by so many methods - flood, wind, and fire to name a few...did I mention them black bear opening that bark up for the sap wood to get exposed? Probably just a conspiracy theory anyways...
A handful of grandfathers pretty much retired, telling all the stories I grew up on about big timber, mostly Old and Second Growth along with all the timber and building industries to profit, creating jobs. Their glory days was a lifestyle.
One being a carpenter - blacksmith, welder retiring from Satsop Nuke Plant who also welded a many logging trucks. Always pointed out tight grain lumber being phenomenal for buildings, and told me to use galvanized nails on exteriors.
A second who I believe worked for Shafer Bros Logging in his adolescent years, talking about the first powersaws being two-man after hanging up their misery whips and felling axes. Dad just told me a story the other day, grandpa said they purposely buried them misery whips to get on a power saw. Later grandpa raised my stepmother in Camp Grisdale, also drove for Raby's, later to end his career in Alaska - time spent in Prince of Wales, Juno, Fairbanks, and Ketchikan, if I recall correctly.
And a third I haven't spoken to since last seeing my mom's side of the family who ran his own logging business in the harbor back then. I remember him coming home with smashed crummies from time to time, helping him sharpen chains in the garage with a grinder and some by hand file, and then soaking and hanging oily chains on nails. He spoke highly of Stihl chainsaws when they were becoming popular.
TLTR, I know it's late, but it's funny how other people's perceptions are. That clown hanging in a tree at Capitol Forest does more harm than good. I don't need to elaborate, trees are a crop, selective cutting and thinning is beneficial preventing major forest fires, allowing timber to thrive and grow... you all should know this tune too well.
As far as building with that tight grain wood vs. that high yield crap with wide grain...I'll build my homes and major structures all day with Old and some Second Growth timber so long as it's tight grained. My second career, I spent 10 years as a union carpenter, and I can tell ya' Old and some Second Growth lumber is harder to build with. It's heavier to pack, more dense to cut - sometimes burning saw blades up, and harder to sink a nail in...but it sure is strong. That high yield, wide grain stuff is much easier to build with...it's lighter, soft cutting, easier to sink nails in...but blows out easier when using nailguns, even hand nailing sometimes.
Anyways, a ramble perhaps, but one thing I can say...logging has become smarter over the years to manage more balanced forestry operations, but the activists and protestors would rather risk lives with spikes, ruin livelihoods, and watch timber burn by thousands of acres to save one tree for instant gratification to validate their cause.
Dad gets retrained after getting remarried with 5 kids now to think about, gets a college degree, moving us to Thurston County where his new career was. Capitol Forest, a hop skip and a jump away, Ol' Stompin' Grounds back in my later half of childhood. All the hiking, camping, wood cuttin', ridin', shootin', and hunting a child could do...still didn't feel like the harbor though, and I always knew Thurston County had a funny smell about it. Which now reminds me, Evergreen College started to get popular... protests and activism was more evident - "make sure to spike them trees after you hug it".
By the time high school was over, the Spotted Owl Hoax was believed to be reality by those that drank the kool-aid. Yet, I don't remember any activist or protestors raising hell about my Great Uncle who probably killed more bear recorded by any other man, that number around 3,500 or more I want to recall. Have one small black bear rug I slept on as a kid growing up, now in the garage waiting to be hung. Thank the forest service and timber companies for hiring such a bounty hunter that Bobba-fett couldn't hold a candle too. His bounty only collected after keeping Smoky Bear from damaging big timber, later to get diseased and rotten if Smoky got his way.
Mother nature the best logger out there by so many methods - flood, wind, and fire to name a few...did I mention them black bear opening that bark up for the sap wood to get exposed? Probably just a conspiracy theory anyways...
A handful of grandfathers pretty much retired, telling all the stories I grew up on about big timber, mostly Old and Second Growth along with all the timber and building industries to profit, creating jobs. Their glory days was a lifestyle.
One being a carpenter - blacksmith, welder retiring from Satsop Nuke Plant who also welded a many logging trucks. Always pointed out tight grain lumber being phenomenal for buildings, and told me to use galvanized nails on exteriors.
A second who I believe worked for Shafer Bros Logging in his adolescent years, talking about the first powersaws being two-man after hanging up their misery whips and felling axes. Dad just told me a story the other day, grandpa said they purposely buried them misery whips to get on a power saw. Later grandpa raised my stepmother in Camp Grisdale, also drove for Raby's, later to end his career in Alaska - time spent in Prince of Wales, Juno, Fairbanks, and Ketchikan, if I recall correctly.
And a third I haven't spoken to since last seeing my mom's side of the family who ran his own logging business in the harbor back then. I remember him coming home with smashed crummies from time to time, helping him sharpen chains in the garage with a grinder and some by hand file, and then soaking and hanging oily chains on nails. He spoke highly of Stihl chainsaws when they were becoming popular.
TLTR, I know it's late, but it's funny how other people's perceptions are. That clown hanging in a tree at Capitol Forest does more harm than good. I don't need to elaborate, trees are a crop, selective cutting and thinning is beneficial preventing major forest fires, allowing timber to thrive and grow... you all should know this tune too well.
As far as building with that tight grain wood vs. that high yield crap with wide grain...I'll build my homes and major structures all day with Old and some Second Growth timber so long as it's tight grained. My second career, I spent 10 years as a union carpenter, and I can tell ya' Old and some Second Growth lumber is harder to build with. It's heavier to pack, more dense to cut - sometimes burning saw blades up, and harder to sink a nail in...but it sure is strong. That high yield, wide grain stuff is much easier to build with...it's lighter, soft cutting, easier to sink nails in...but blows out easier when using nailguns, even hand nailing sometimes.
Anyways, a ramble perhaps, but one thing I can say...logging has become smarter over the years to manage more balanced forestry operations, but the activists and protestors would rather risk lives with spikes, ruin livelihoods, and watch timber burn by thousands of acres to save one tree for instant gratification to validate their cause.
The other day, while on a very long bike ride, I figured out why diameter limits might be a good thing.
I rode 22 miles up to a small town. Figured I'd stop and buy some snacks at the little store that does not have bathrooms. Last year, the state park toilets were kept unlocked, even though the park was closed. That was not the case this year. So, I did not go to the store and turned around and started back. Then started looking for big enough trees. They didn't exist. Where there was brush, there was good tight barb wire fence between the road and brush. Finally found a spot, but dammit! We need bigger trees around here.
I rode 22 miles up to a small town. Figured I'd stop and buy some snacks at the little store that does not have bathrooms. Last year, the state park toilets were kept unlocked, even though the park was closed. That was not the case this year. So, I did not go to the store and turned around and started back. Then started looking for big enough trees. They didn't exist. Where there was brush, there was good tight barb wire fence between the road and brush. Finally found a spot, but dammit! We need bigger trees around here.
Lazy this AM, so a few ramblings on PNW and old growth since this thread restarted.
DW always gets a kick out of Eastern friend visiting and marveling at trees around the house, 160 ft DF right next to house (I built house 50 years ago) and left tight group of DF, then they were about 50 YO blows them away comng from 50 ft being a tall tree. DW likes to garden, alder, fir, and cedar are 'weeds' in her garden.
Last 20 years has seen high density (3500 sq ft housed on 4000 sq ft lots) surround our 3 acres - have had new arrivals stop and thank us for preserving the 'OLD growth'.
A few of the 130 ft 'old growtn' my KIDS planted. Have one giant sequoia I planted 400 ft from the house only 25 years ago already 30" DBH.
Black cottonwood - after I heard some small snaps followed by a 2 ton BC limb fall 30 feet from me one summer about 40 years ago, dropped 4 of 5 BC on property, 2 of which taped out on the ground at over 155 ft, supposed record height for BC. Still have one over 155ft, now overtopped by DFir, think I'll let a teenage grandson drop the BC this summer for the experience of dropping a 'big' tree.
Somebody mentioned deer - once planted 2000 DFir seedling down by Mossyrock on a few clear acres on some land down there, deer/elk ate 100% of them the next spring !!!
DW always gets a kick out of Eastern friend visiting and marveling at trees around the house, 160 ft DF right next to house (I built house 50 years ago) and left tight group of DF, then they were about 50 YO blows them away comng from 50 ft being a tall tree. DW likes to garden, alder, fir, and cedar are 'weeds' in her garden.
Last 20 years has seen high density (3500 sq ft housed on 4000 sq ft lots) surround our 3 acres - have had new arrivals stop and thank us for preserving the 'OLD growth'.
A few of the 130 ft 'old growtn' my KIDS planted. Have one giant sequoia I planted 400 ft from the house only 25 years ago already 30" DBH.
Black cottonwood - after I heard some small snaps followed by a 2 ton BC limb fall 30 feet from me one summer about 40 years ago, dropped 4 of 5 BC on property, 2 of which taped out on the ground at over 155 ft, supposed record height for BC. Still have one over 155ft, now overtopped by DFir, think I'll let a teenage grandson drop the BC this summer for the experience of dropping a 'big' tree.
Somebody mentioned deer - once planted 2000 DFir seedling down by Mossyrock on a few clear acres on some land down there, deer/elk ate 100% of them the next spring !!!
You gotta at least tube your seedlings.
An interesting factoid about cedar seedlings, of which some are candy for elk and deer. The critters don't seem to munch on the natural growing cedar, they will concentrate on the planted cedars, with some figuring out that they can pull up the tubes and get to the trees. Port Blakely replanted a clearcut with cedar, and then was in replanting it the next year with DF, and tubing it.
A friend has had success with a lot of cussing, tubing and planting spruce in the same hole with the cedar, and more cussing. Her tree farm is doing well, despite the ^#$& elk, who will also bed down on top of the seedling and smoosh them.
