prunes which should be removals.

[treeman82]

At the end of the day yesterday we went to a job where we had to remove some large dead branches, and a couple of broken branches from a descent sized sugar maple. I hadn't seen the tree prior to doing any work, so I was ready to just footlock up and start doing my thing. As soon as I saw the tree though, I said F this and put my gaffs on. There was a lot of LARGE dead wood on it, and the bottom portion of the trunk was punky. The top appeared to have some live buds on it, but on my way up I kept on finding cavities, or at least evidence of cavities. There weren't any other trees around which would have been tall enough for me to climb up to where I needed to be either. So basically, what I am asking is if you come across a tree to be pruned which you feel should be taken down instead due to lots of defects, is it ok to use gaffs?

 

[clearance]

Treeman 82- have you not learned from people at this site that it is a crime to prune with spurs and that your feelings about cutting down a sacred tree are wrong? Save the trees at all costs, it might have lived but you probably shortened its life by using spurs. Just joking of course, SAW IT DOWN. Today I was working on a r.o.w through the bush in a big park, lots of maples. Could have reached out with a pruner, high and limbwaked to get the clearance, waste of time. I cut of the branches at the trunk because its faster and sometimes I am left with no branches at all. So then I cut of a log, then fall it from the ground, end of story. Some of the trees have been climbed before, with spurs, and you can see the old scars as you spur it again. In a few years they will be climbed again, with spurs. If spurring kills trees, how come they are all aliive and budding?

 

[Lumberjack]

Clearance, dont think you will find any post that say that spikes have killed a tree, rather it is bad for the trees health, which is impossible to sucessfully argue against with basic knowledge of tree biology.

Matt, was there not a suitable TIP? If not, then I would reconsider climbing it to trim rather than remove, if you where working for someone else and they say trim no matter what (contract climber) then your safety comes first, spike away.

 

[Old Monkey]

I try to be good but on some really ugly silver maples, I'll spur them. When I do I use a ladder or hip thrust up so I don't spur anything too obvious. I know this makes me bad and "old school" but like I said I try to be good. My "good" might not be as good as some others around here, who are in fact much gooder than me.

 

[treeman82]

The TIP that would have been good had questionable structural integrity. Also, it was half dead. The branch I wound up using as a TIP should have been removed, because it was in bad shape, however it had a couple of good buds which were breaking, so I left it. If we had had more time, it would have been a complete removal. I figure give it another year or two and I'll be back up there again to take the whole thing down.

 

[Ekka]

Treeman82

Even when I spike I prefer to have a high point in but here's some ideas to help you in the future.

Install a high line into the high point, tie 1 end off on the trunk and bounce test the high point, get a few guys on it, if the high point is going to take a limb walk emulate that from the ground with a lot more force. Having one end tied of doubles the load.

If your still weary, install a second line somewhere else and tie off to the back of your harness and have some-one belay you ... a back up.

If you are going to cut off your high point and only be left with a spar you can set a false crotch retrievable from the ground ... ART Rope Guide is one off the shelf but you can rig something up with carabiners that's retrievable too.

 

[pbtree]

Throw that puppy to the ground!

 

[treeseer]

" There was a lot of LARGE dead wood on it, and the bottom portion of the trunk was punky."
How punky? What % of the circ, how deep? If you don't answer this before getting up and rigging big limbs, you may be risking your life. Someone on the crew has to take a minute and see if the tree's safe.

" The top appeared to have some live buds on it, but on my way up I kept on finding cavities, or at least evidence of cavities."

This is the worst time of year to rate condition. when buds are just breaking it's really hard to judge what's dead without taking a close look. Being quick to judge (what is "evidence of cavities"?) iis not safe or smart; either you or the tree may be treated too harshly.

Oldmonkey may have a reasonable compromise but Ekka has a better idea about climbing in a way that is safe for you and for the tree. And Lumby is wrong; Shigo and others have traced decay from spurs that are death of tree tissue, and posts have been made of documenting whole tree death by spurs:

"Below some old pruning cuts halfway down, a portion of bark over 4’ square was detached. Curiously, it wasn’t near the lightning wound! Insects had entered wounds made by climbing spikes and eaten away the cambium. That climber must have dug in his spikes to keep his balance as he cut, with Great Expectations that those little holes couldn’t possibly hurt that great big tree. ...
Added to the lightning wound, this human-made injury put the total dead bark area over one-third of the circumference. Despite insect control, fertilization, and, belatedly, mulch, the prognosis was poor. Little scar tissue grows, and half the crown is pale. The tree’s useful years were over, clearly due to the use of climbing spikes."

Bottom line--Look well at the defects and **assess the risk** before you leap up a tree. There's no excuse for risking your life and the tree's the quick and dirty way with spikes.

 

[Lumberjack]

Guy, guess I was wrong! I shoulda said I dont rememeber any posts.

Wouldnt you say that that was a rare case? What species was the tree?

 

[treeseer]

Wouldnt you say that that was a rare case? What species was the tree?

Rare in that spiking was directly and irrefutably the casue of tree death, yes. Rare in that it contributed to tree decline, no. All the other cases have other stressors involved, so the yahoos who don't know how to climb without spikes can still play dumb (an easy role for them ).

Quercus falcate, southern red oak.

 

[Lumberjack]

Guy, I was thinking. It wouldnt be hard to have a spike injury somewhere along the height of the tree around its circumfence. Since some trees (or most?) carry up vertical tubes, wouldnt it be possible to girdle the tree from the spike injurys? Not as effective as cutting through the cambium all the way around the tree, but a large impact none the less.

No spikes on trims!

 

[treeseer]

Since some trees (or most?) carry up vertical tubes, wouldnt it be possible to girdle the tree from the spike injurys?

Yes, it is possible, plus spike wounds are worse than girdling cambium, in a way, because they break the sapwwod barrier and invite decay and insects to enter the wood.

Yes, vertical tubes are the main channels for transport, but all (I think) trees have been found to have lateral channels too. That's why it's no longer recommended to point the wounds like a football on a tee when tracing injured bark.

 

[clearance]

Treeseer is calling names again, stop it your'e hurting my feelings. I love it, leaving garbage behind for someone else to climb years later when it is even worse. Saw it down, next.

 

[treeseer]

Sorry to offend your sensibilities, clearance, but what is refusing to learn to climb without spikes, if not dumb? Kinda like refusing to learn about electricity before working around wires.

I gotta wonder, tho, what qualifies you to judge trees as "garbage"?

And do you realize that the criteria for judging, and options for managing, trees in urban landscapes are way different than for backwoods trees next to transmission lines?

Peace, brother.

 

[clearance]

apples and oranges. When the dogooders try to force us utility guys to climb without spurs, it will really hit the fan. Probably won't happen for a while, people, do-gooders included like power too much to fek with the guys that keep it on. Anyways, bad trees are bad trees no matter where they are located, when in doubt-saw it down.

 

[Old Monkey]

Clearance, you are the devil on my left shoulder always yelling "cut 'er down!" Treeseer is of course the dude with the halo and scandals on my other shoulder reminding me that "trees are good, see them for what they are." :angel:

 

[a_lopa]

LMFAO :jester: guy has a 372 with a 36"bar as well,it must be hard for him killing a tree

 

[a_lopa]

apples and oranges. When the dogooders try to force us utility guys to climb without spurs, it will really hit the fan. Probably won't happen for a while, people, do-gooders included like power too much to fek with the guys that keep it on. Anyways, bad trees are bad trees no matter where they are located, when in doubt-saw it down.

youll be spiking them a while longer

 

[clearance]

Old Monkey-pretty funny comparison. Treeseer shining in light, surounded by adoring disciples worshiping all the trees. Me, the hack sitting in my 4x4, shades on, listening to old Van Halen ..... "least I don't have to beg or borrow, everything I got ... cause I'm running with the devil....."

 

[KentuckySawyer]

As far as pruning "major deadwood" vs. removal, I don't get the question. If the customer wants to keep their old nasty tree at all cost, thats their perogative. They are paying our bills, regardless of their qualifications for tree evaluations. Chances are that in a year or so they'll pay you to come back and remove the whole thing. This is the perspective of someone who does residential work for home owners. I can respect Clearance's point as well though. In his field it seems more cost effective to remove the problem trees.
I personally don't spur while pruning... 98% of the time. In a case of personal safety vs tree health, I say hook it.