Not from my experience. You need to do some serious digging or use a tree spade.
BTW, I see you used Marco, did you get a quote from Bob's? I used Marco one time but they don't let you ride the ball and Bob's is great for tree work.
Jeff
Question for the Crane Ninja's
- Thread starter sgreanbeans
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Not from my experience. You need to do some serious digging or use a tree spade.
BTW, I see you used Marco, did you get a quote from Bob's? I used Marco one time but they don't let you ride the ball and Bob's is great for tree work.
Jeff
Not from my experience. You need to do some serious digging or use a tree spade.
BTW, I see you used Marco, did you get a quote from Bob's? I used Marco one time but they don't let you ride the ball and Bob's is great for tree work.
Jeff
Agreed, there's a reason they thrive in hurricane zones, roots are amazingly strong.
beastmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
We pop them using the knockle boom crane pretty easy(well I don't do the digging, those guys might feel different) We dig around the base of the palm, cutting out as many root as possible. Then push it using the boom of the crane to brake it loose. Once you can push it over a few feet, we put dirt or rocks under the high side of the root ball, then pull on it the opposite way we pushed, and the dirt or rocks we placed under it act like a lever and pops them out. Never did a big date palm like that though, but have hand dug them to get under the rootball then place a choker and tighten it tell it cuts all the roots. We do that for palms were going to box or move, have to leave a bigger rootball then if your just going to pop them out. Most the time we just leave the stump or grind them.
Thanks fellas, good stuff right there.
I had Justin on my mind when posting this, I know he is epic level with this stuff, but then he puts on his a ss hat and starts sending nasty stuff to me on Facebook,WTF?, so I wont be asking him back. Also, I didn't ban him last time under his new name.
We had a awesome, seasoned operator, but found out that he is retiring in 2 months, that figures! That was my problem back home, like I said before, I would watch these guys and when they cut stuff loose, the log goes flying, the crane starts bouncing, just looked like a bunch of idiots. Just last week a client called me from home, telling me about a major F-up with a local hacker and the known tree/crane outfit. They almost tipped the crane over, so the crane bails on them, leaves them with a cut trunk. So they just push it over into the next door yard and tear up all kinds of stuff. The yard was my clients and she said that she could tell, no one knew what they where doing. So it always made me nervous bringing a crane in at home, no confidence. Now that I have done a big one with a great OP, I feel the need to do more.
Going to be taking out 40 mexi fan palms, all about 60ft. plan on having the crane for it as well, going to take the trees in one shot. Should be pretty fun, going to leave about 4ft there so we can grab them with a mini ex, with a thumb and pop the stumps. From what I understand, the palms will pop out pretty easy, is this true (Beasty, Jeff and Mike)
I am debating on whether to have the bucket go thru them first and get the tops out, so that way we are just picking logs and can bring in a end dump to lay them in, so that way we don't have to cut them up.
Gotta say, I really hate palms. They are just a PITA. Material is expensive to get rid of, corrodes the equip, nasty clean up and they have WAY TOO MANY pokey things! Give me a big maple, elm or oak any day! Eucs are ok, but they GUM up so much crap (pun intended).
Thanks again guys, I am picking up what you are saying.
Sounds like fun! I think a good sized stumper will be a lot more effective and easier than a mini excavator.
You'll want to lay all the logs in one truck (or 40 yd bin) and chip the fronds in another. Should add up to some pretty hefty dump fees! Quite a few heavy loads.
I have seen some use a big chipper and chip the whole palm trunk! You have a bc1800?
imagineero
Addicted to ArboristSite
You've had some pretty good advice so far, I'll throw my two cents in.
I'm the same as most guys here, I only trust a few ops and most of them are ex tree workers. I price my crane jobs higher than most guys, so I don't have to rush them. I think most guys price crane work too low then they have to rush it. You see so many ops really running the crane at its absolute limit, leaving themselves no safety margin. You really shouldn't push the limit that much, particularly not in the type of lifts that we do with cranes. Static lifts are pretty straight forward, fixed lifting points, and if you pick it up and it's too much you can easily put it down again. Not the case with tree work. Our lifts start up high, if you take the pick and it's too much, the crane is going over. The lifts are much more dynamic. I don't know why so many guys max the crane out given the risk, you really shouldn't be hitting more than maybe 65%. That's why I price my crane work a little higher than most guys, so I've got time to make smaller lifts.
When it comes to cuts, as already noted the step/snap cut is a no no. I like to do my crane work with chains, and usually have 3 legs set with equal length. For branches I often use two chains. It takes an extra few seconds but it means my lifts are always balanced. Nobody is good enough to get the balance point perfect every time, and when you see real crane ops lifting beams they always use 2 chains. Why settle for less?
The third leg doesn't get used as much, but it comes in handy for big wide forking sections, and storm damage work etc, Y shapes. I'll put one leg on each end of the Y. Since branches are rarely level, I usually end up wrapping the high end a few times around before choking it. Saves adjusting the chain length and you don't need to be spot on. I like to set it so the high end has a little more slack than the low. I make an undercut, then as I make my top cut the branch settles nice and the cut opens up. Breaks free real smooth. With a crane we're talking branches in the 12-20" size pretty often.
Then it comes to logs I'm a little different to a lot of guys. I see many guys using a single choker on a log section, and they often cut all the branches off then set the choker just under a branch collar so it wont slip. Trouble is that you've loaded the lift lop sided, and for no reason I can understand many guys seem to set the choke on the side closest to the crane. That means the lift is going to tip the log away from the crane (which no crane op likes) but then the same guys start cutting from the back towards the crane and act all surprised when the bar pinches. 'aint jack that the crane op can do about it at that stage, you're both screwed!
If you must set a single choker, set it on the back of the log. Notch the face or just make a little cut on the crane side, then proceed with your back cut. Put minimal preload on the crane. Less than what you think the pick weighs. Make your backcut. If the kerf starts to close, have the op take up a little. It'll open up real nice. Cut all the way through, then he can lift it off. It'll often spin/flop as he takes it up though, so keep your head down.
There are much more elegant solutions. The first one is to set a bridle. Google it if you don't know what it is. You can do it with chains, or slings. A bridle is different from just setting two chains, because both sides are equally loaded. A bridle can slip though, so you need to cut it in. I usually cut a small humboldt either side of the log. With chains or slings set and cut in, load the crane to what you guess the pick weighs. No need for notches etc, just cut all the way through. It'll hang there like magic and everyone will be impressed. If you guess the weight right, it won't even move as you cut through.
The last method is the one I use most often. When taking down log sections, I leave branches on. I use them as a counter weight, so I don't need to set a bridle. It takes a bit of experience, but you get the hang of it pretty quick. The ideal setup is to have a branch on the back side, facing away from the crane. I set a single choker, on the back side. Take up approximately the weight of the piece. Make your cut as normal. If the branch is a good size, it stops all the lop sidedness that you'd normally get from a single choker.
A final trick that I think I posted some video of before is the stick trick. It only works for smooth barked trees/palms with a head or a branch at the point you want to lift. You set the chain from the ground, and open the choker up wide, then jamb a stick in one of the links of chain. The stick stops the chain from choking. The op carefully raises this wide open choker up the stem, and when he gets to the head the stick breaks and the choker can close. Took out a dozen good size cocos palms from the ground in an hour this way a couple months back. You can do everything form the ground, one cut and you're done.
Never be afraid to say no when you're doing crane work, especially if you've got a nervous, impatient or inexperienced op. Take control of the situation, and call the shots. It's his crane, but it's your life. I've worked with plenty of guys with modern fancy multi million dollar cranes that couldn't lift squat, despite their high ratings. Worked with some good old timers with old school cranes that were great to work with and really knew their stuff and got a lot done too. At the end of the day though, with either guy, they're down sitting in the crane. Even if it flips they'll probably be fine. Might spill their coffee. You're going to wear it.
Shaun
I'm the same as most guys here, I only trust a few ops and most of them are ex tree workers. I price my crane jobs higher than most guys, so I don't have to rush them. I think most guys price crane work too low then they have to rush it. You see so many ops really running the crane at its absolute limit, leaving themselves no safety margin. You really shouldn't push the limit that much, particularly not in the type of lifts that we do with cranes. Static lifts are pretty straight forward, fixed lifting points, and if you pick it up and it's too much you can easily put it down again. Not the case with tree work. Our lifts start up high, if you take the pick and it's too much, the crane is going over. The lifts are much more dynamic. I don't know why so many guys max the crane out given the risk, you really shouldn't be hitting more than maybe 65%. That's why I price my crane work a little higher than most guys, so I've got time to make smaller lifts.
When it comes to cuts, as already noted the step/snap cut is a no no. I like to do my crane work with chains, and usually have 3 legs set with equal length. For branches I often use two chains. It takes an extra few seconds but it means my lifts are always balanced. Nobody is good enough to get the balance point perfect every time, and when you see real crane ops lifting beams they always use 2 chains. Why settle for less?
The third leg doesn't get used as much, but it comes in handy for big wide forking sections, and storm damage work etc, Y shapes. I'll put one leg on each end of the Y. Since branches are rarely level, I usually end up wrapping the high end a few times around before choking it. Saves adjusting the chain length and you don't need to be spot on. I like to set it so the high end has a little more slack than the low. I make an undercut, then as I make my top cut the branch settles nice and the cut opens up. Breaks free real smooth. With a crane we're talking branches in the 12-20" size pretty often.
Then it comes to logs I'm a little different to a lot of guys. I see many guys using a single choker on a log section, and they often cut all the branches off then set the choker just under a branch collar so it wont slip. Trouble is that you've loaded the lift lop sided, and for no reason I can understand many guys seem to set the choke on the side closest to the crane. That means the lift is going to tip the log away from the crane (which no crane op likes) but then the same guys start cutting from the back towards the crane and act all surprised when the bar pinches. 'aint jack that the crane op can do about it at that stage, you're both screwed!
If you must set a single choker, set it on the back of the log. Notch the face or just make a little cut on the crane side, then proceed with your back cut. Put minimal preload on the crane. Less than what you think the pick weighs. Make your backcut. If the kerf starts to close, have the op take up a little. It'll open up real nice. Cut all the way through, then he can lift it off. It'll often spin/flop as he takes it up though, so keep your head down.
There are much more elegant solutions. The first one is to set a bridle. Google it if you don't know what it is. You can do it with chains, or slings. A bridle is different from just setting two chains, because both sides are equally loaded. A bridle can slip though, so you need to cut it in. I usually cut a small humboldt either side of the log. With chains or slings set and cut in, load the crane to what you guess the pick weighs. No need for notches etc, just cut all the way through. It'll hang there like magic and everyone will be impressed. If you guess the weight right, it won't even move as you cut through.
The last method is the one I use most often. When taking down log sections, I leave branches on. I use them as a counter weight, so I don't need to set a bridle. It takes a bit of experience, but you get the hang of it pretty quick. The ideal setup is to have a branch on the back side, facing away from the crane. I set a single choker, on the back side. Take up approximately the weight of the piece. Make your cut as normal. If the branch is a good size, it stops all the lop sidedness that you'd normally get from a single choker.
A final trick that I think I posted some video of before is the stick trick. It only works for smooth barked trees/palms with a head or a branch at the point you want to lift. You set the chain from the ground, and open the choker up wide, then jamb a stick in one of the links of chain. The stick stops the chain from choking. The op carefully raises this wide open choker up the stem, and when he gets to the head the stick breaks and the choker can close. Took out a dozen good size cocos palms from the ground in an hour this way a couple months back. You can do everything form the ground, one cut and you're done.
Never be afraid to say no when you're doing crane work, especially if you've got a nervous, impatient or inexperienced op. Take control of the situation, and call the shots. It's his crane, but it's your life. I've worked with plenty of guys with modern fancy multi million dollar cranes that couldn't lift squat, despite their high ratings. Worked with some good old timers with old school cranes that were great to work with and really knew their stuff and got a lot done too. At the end of the day though, with either guy, they're down sitting in the crane. Even if it flips they'll probably be fine. Might spill their coffee. You're going to wear it.
Shaun
beastmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
The stick trick works great. we use a piece of duck tape on a choker does the same thing.
beastmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
View attachment 287006 a king Palm we recently popped out. Grinding would of been difficult because of the location. The home owner wants to landscape that area and grinding would of made the ground useless. Now just bring in some fill, and your good to go.
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
Not from my experience. You need to do some serious digging or use a tree spade.
BTW, I see you used Marco, did you get a quote from Bob's? I used Marco one time but they don't let you ride the ball and Bob's is great for tree work.
Jeff
No, haven't met with Bob's yet. City Arborist for La Jolla didn't want us to use him. Guess they drove down Ivanhoe with 100ft of boom in the air? Not sure what probs it caused, but felt I better keep his support. They sent us a pro operator tho.
Just lined out renting a 64k Excavator for the stumps, going to use ur trick Beasty. Cant freaking wait, I love running excavators. SO MUCH POWER! Our biggest chipper is a Bandit 1590 drum with a winch, so I don't think we will be chipping to many logs. Just pickin them and laying them in the end dump.
Ever since we did that job, now we are getting calls for more big trees, they must be spreading the word. HO's were amazed that we did it in 2 days, which to me was not a big deal, apparently to them it is. Got a call from the project super yesterday letting me know that he sent me a bunch of pics, then he went on to praise us so more and told me about the HO's. "They are ecstatic". Here is what is weird, they keep who the HO is real private, they are remodeling this bad arse house in La Jolla. No expense sparred. This house is in the same hood that was on the news recently about a famous person doing this, and this is the only house in this same hood getting remodeled, the others are new construction, this one is a more like a restoration, which is in line with the news. Old house, new life. Seems to me that this would only mean one thing.....Is that you Mitt Romney? Pretty sure it is! They wont say, I asked. If it was, I was sure hoping I could meet that guy, snap of the fingers and your life could be changed in a instant!
Oh well, probably is some Saudi Prince setting up a prep school for terrorist. Off on a tangent here. One of the things that bugs me the most about being out here, is seeing all the money, knowing that I am just as smart as some of these guys. Drive by houses that have a Ferrari, Porsche and a Range Rover out in the drive, because the parents cars are in the garage, the Bentley and Bugatti. The new "HOT" car, that the local trophy wife club is sporting, is the new Maserati ...........makes me sick... or jealous!
Expensive stump removal!
beastmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
Not if you have your own crane.
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
Well, we came in at second bidder on the 40+ palms, thought we had it? Dude tells me that he wants me to do the job and tells me where I need to be on the price! I'm thinkin "Awesome" He tells me yesterday that the guy who won it was about 15g's cheaper!!! WTF!!! That means he is doing the whole job for about 500 a tree, stumps dug out, on a bank, next to a canal full of bad water. Dump fees, travel time to and from....... U guys know! Well, I wish him luck! Damn! I wanted that one, would have been fun.
Oh well... you'll get 'em next time. Always disappointing though!
20k for 40 palms. wow. How many days and how large a crew did you figure?
20k for 40 palms. wow. How many days and how large a crew did you figure?
With all those stumps it's gotta be at least 5 grand in dump fees, assuming each tree is around 3 tons.
beastmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
i was thinking the same thing.
mattfr12
The Bulldog
Everyone out there pays to dump? 5gs is heavy
arborealbuffoon
Wood Wh@re
Hats off guys for a TRULY informative thread. I've done a fair amount of crane work, and it was all with the same operator. Guy is retired now, and my body says I'm not far behind!
For some reason, it's been more and more difficult for me to find good information here to absorb. Probably just me getting old and cranky....I dunno.
I completely agree that maxing out the crane and rigging with big picks is pointless and a really bad idea to boot. I got to watch an old friend crane out a big one awhile back, and I was impressed. He was taking very reasonable sized picks, and took his sweet time. I almost couldn't believe it was him, as in the past he's been quite a cowboy and f****d up a lotta stuff.
Oh, and I have never seen chains used. We used steel chokers mostly, but I actually prefer rated nylon Spansets for their lower weight, ease of handling, and dielectric properties. Somewhere I still have a steel choker that has a burn mark from being drug across HO's service line.....
Be safe out there in Cali. You're so right, it's all about the flashy bling out there. Fancy, fancy!
For some reason, it's been more and more difficult for me to find good information here to absorb. Probably just me getting old and cranky....I dunno.
I completely agree that maxing out the crane and rigging with big picks is pointless and a really bad idea to boot. I got to watch an old friend crane out a big one awhile back, and I was impressed. He was taking very reasonable sized picks, and took his sweet time. I almost couldn't believe it was him, as in the past he's been quite a cowboy and f****d up a lotta stuff.
Oh, and I have never seen chains used. We used steel chokers mostly, but I actually prefer rated nylon Spansets for their lower weight, ease of handling, and dielectric properties. Somewhere I still have a steel choker that has a burn mark from being drug across HO's service line.....
Be safe out there in Cali. You're so right, it's all about the flashy bling out there. Fancy, fancy!
If it is palm, yeah. Palm does not decompose. They say it takes longer than Pampers in the landfill. You pay by the ton about $50 to $60 a ton. Palm is heavy. We paid $660.00 to dump three 35 foot tall palms, but it was in the bid. Now clean stuff, I have a lot of contacts!,, a couple in Scott's area too! :msp_biggrin:
Jeff
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mattfr12
The Bulldog
You guys must get good money for them with that kind of added expense.
Not sure if I've ever seen one up close my last trip to Florida was around ten years ago.
You'd be surprised. There are a lot of guys willing to take out single mature palms for 800-900. They kill chains and are often difficult to cut. I generally stay away from them or just bid really high... some varieties also have horrific spikes! The Canary Island Date palm for example. Palms are not particularly pleasant.
mattfr12
The Bulldog
Ya I've heard some stories making me think they can be a pain. It's amazing how different it is from here to there. I could make a killing letting you guys dump at my place we are moving in 20 acres here in 30 days. We need the room to run a tub grinder so we don't irritate anyone. Do they run palms through tubs?
One of my climbers worked for Bartlett in CA and he always told me about the carbon monoxide getting trapped in the canopy and guys passing out.
I love the paint job on beasts buddies k boom.
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