Retrenching Liriodendron

[treeseer]

Here's a reduction of a liriodendron with a Humongous Hole (~50% circ., >80% hollow)mid-stem. All cuts to nodes that presently have laterals. left 2 lower limbs alone--not much impact on stability, and they nourish the woundwood around the canker.
Plus they were over the neighbors' yard and essentially their problem. :001_rolleyes:

Lightens the load, c u in 3 years to restore. Prognosis: sprouting at cuts 1-2'/year, able to take off 1/3 next time to mitigate crowding and bad forks.

 

[Zale]

Was the pruning done to reduce weight due to the cavity?

 

[treeseer]

Was the pruning done to reduce weight due to the cavity?

"Lightens the load"

 

[Pelorus]

Yep, it surely did get reduced. Looks awesome.

 

[Ed Roland]

Here's a reduction of a liriodendron with a Humongous Hole (~50% circ., >80% hollow)mid-stem. All cuts to nodes that presently have laterals. left 2 lower limbs alone--not much impact on stability, and they nourish the woundwood around the canker.
Plus they were over the neighbors' yard and essentially their problem. :001_rolleyes:

Lightens the load, c u in 3 years to restore. Prognosis: sprouting at cuts 1-2'/year, able to take off 1/3 next time to mitigate crowding and bad forks.

50% exceeds the general formulae for acceptable strength loss (et al). After considering all variables management strategies can be developed.

Preservation over removal can mean more $ during long term care and the client gets to retain their asset.

 

[treeseer]

What matters more--how it looks today, or in 2015?

General Formulae; sounds like military madness. But yes, >1/3 open cavity means time to start thinking, not stop... client wanted risk managed and asset to remain. Wife wondered if we took enough off; :msp_ohmy:

 

[Pelorus]

I'm wondering why that tree got radically reduced in one shot, like a hippie visiting an army barber for the first time. Wouldn't a gradual reduction over a several year time span been in this tree's best interests, and less stressful to it's root system? Won't this tree in it's current condition use up a lot of it's energy reserves via a profuse amount of epicormic sprouting?

 

[Pelorus]

"I think that urban trees must be the most misunderstood and physically mutilated living things on the face of this earth. Why do humans butcher trees the way they do? Why do humans feel that they must severely prune and cut back and reduce the size of subdue and exercise absolute dominance and control over trees? Why do humans waste so much money and effort on unnecessary pruning?"

Deborah Ellis, MS.
Consulting Arborist & Horticulturist

ASHS Certified Professional Horticulturist #30022, ASCA Registered Consulting Arborist #305,

I.S.A. Board Certified Master Arborist WE-0457

 

[AirBorneMutha]

I'm wondering why that tree got radically reduced in one shot, like a hippie visiting an army barber for the first time. Wouldn't a gradual reduction over a several year time span been in this tree's best interests, and less stressful to it's root system? Won't this tree in it's current condition use up a lot of it's energy reserves via a profuse amount of epicormic sprouting?

I think the idea is that the reduction will concentrate more growth at the open wound stabilizing the tree wishfully thinking, that's my take. Poplar always seems surprises me at how well it responds to top jobs.

 

[Pelorus]

That tree's energy generating source ie. foliage: photosynthesis, gap has been greatly compromised, and the tree is gonna undertake to repair the arboricultural malpractice by using it's stored energy reserves to grow new leaves from dormant buds. Roots are gonna be affected too.
How long has this "humongous hole" been growing? Does anyone think it happened overnight? How many storms and high winds has that tree endured with a full canopy despite the hollow?

My take on this is that Best Management Practices have been disregarded in order to accommodate the wishes of a client. If Billy Bob the 101 new guy had posted the photos, he likely woulda been roundly condemned for performing hackerry. But this is a BCMA that did this, and I can't quite figure that one out.

 

[AirBorneMutha]

No man, that is not it at all.

In fact it will probably put down less wood at the open wound due to reduced vigor from having some of it's food producing capacity removed.


It's all about reducing the wind load of the tree so the wood around the opening sees less stress from the wind, ice, etc.

Reducing the crown also should force more 'food factory' growth lower in the tree where it places less leverage on the wood around the wound opening.

Gotcha

[/QUOTE]It's about the physics of leverage and hopefully the biological response of lower placed growth in the future.[/QUOTE]

Like I said wishful thinking. So where's the growth going to come from the trunk?

 

[treeseer]

No man, that is not it at all.

In fact it will probably put down less wood at the open wound due to reduced vigor from having some of it's food producing capacity removed.

It's all about reducing the wind load of the tree so the wood around the opening sees less stress from the wind, ice, etc.

Reducing the crown also should force more 'food factory' growth lower in the tree where it places less leverage on the wood around the wound opening.
It's about the physics of leverage and hopefully the biological response of lower placed growth in the future.

Billy Bob node what he done, yassur! :msp_w00t: Del, your analysis is astute; y'oughta form an institute. o and Pel, if the growth is from dormant buds it will 1 not require the use of stored energy to make new buds, and 2 not be epi-cormic (outside the core). It will be endo-cormic, attached to the core by pith trails and already hooked up to vascular streams. uttahere2:

That's the difference between internodal hatracking and nodal pruning. and if you read coder's arboritecture piece, you'll see he advocates shaping trees like cones. thanks for reminding me of that; i was telling my guy to shape it like a cone, and i think he did a good job. :msp_thumbup:

 

[Pelorus]

Dr. Kim Coder is a good source of info re. Pruning, heartwood exposures, root vs shoot interactions.

"Pruning of primary pathways is topping and should be avoided. The whole tree disruption occurring after primary path pruning is immense and damages the tree for the rest of its life. Root shoot growth, resource alloca- tions, and tree effectiveness to respond to environmental changes are compromised"

The tulip poplar didn't get "topped", (going strictly by the letter of the law) but the maximum recommended number of pruning cuts in one pruning cycle certainly was exceeded, as was the amount of heartwood exposures re. the quantity and size of them retrenched limbs. If someone wants to put Shigo out to pasture, then they are gonna have to get Coder to accompany him. They are singing from the same hymnbook. And they know what they are talking about.

 

[Pelorus]

if the growth is from dormant buds it will 1 not require the use of stored energy to make new buds, and 2 not be epi-cormic (outside the core). It will be endo-cormic, attached to the core by pith trails and already hooked up to vascular streams. uttahere2:

That's the difference between internodal hatracking and nodal pruning. and if you read coder's arboritecture piece, you'll see he advocates shaping trees like cones. thanks for reminding me of that; i was telling my guy to shape it like a cone, and i think he did a good job. :msp_thumbup:

Latent buds vs dormant buds? Will look into that. I've seen beech logs at a sawmill sprout branches in the spring. Pretty desperate logs, they were.
You can call what you had done to that tree "a good job", and I'll call it an abdication of professional responsibility; nodal pruning notwithstanding!

 

[treeseer]

Latent buds vs dormant buds? Will look into that.

nonono those are synonyms. Buds are either pre-formed (latent = waiting, dormant = sleeping), or newly formed (adventitious = new-coming).
Once terms are defined, arguments last < 3 minutes (Shigo, quoting Voltaire).

re heartwood, all cuts <4", no cuts on stem. I handled the brush and saw all white inside. No heartwood exposed, all cuts were on secondary/tertiary pathways; i.e. no stem wounds.

Help, I'm bringing Shigo back IN from the pasture via nodal pruning (see page 458), and Coder's on board too, per your handout.
After you get over the shock, the only objection left is "violating the recommended maximum..." hooey :msp_razz: patooey.
Numbers are shoulds, merely places to START thinking (a shall), not STOP!

 

[AirBorneMutha]

Be nice to fast forward a couple of years to see the conclusion. Don't mean to dumb up your thread treesseer just trying to learn something. I mean I get the whole jst of pruning back to latent buds and all but won't the tree respond and push that growth right back to where it was in a few short years. Actually it may push more growth and increase the weight in the canopy.

 

[Pelorus]

Thanks for the clarification, Treeseer. From the second pic posted it sure looked (via the iPad) that a lot of them cuts really exceeded 4"dia. with questionable future compartmentalization. Re. exceeding max number / percentage of recommended cuts, I will (reluctantly) defer to your knowledge and experience.
It does somewhat trouble me that you can give these recommendations greater lassitude than say, the ISA Cert. Arb exam does, lol. Exceeding posted speed limits doesn't mean a negative outcome either, necessarily. But greatly exceeding them could be costly or traumatic.......the dose makes the poison.

I wish to retract my harsh "abdication of professional responsibility" accusation, and amend it to a more subdued "controversial retrenchment". :msp_rolleyes:

Cheers,
Dave

 

[treeseer]

It does somewhat trouble me that you can give these recommendations greater lassitude than say, the ISA Cert. Arb exam does, lol. Exceeding posted speed limits doesn't mean a negative outcome either, necessarily. But greatly exceeding them could be costly or traumatic.......the dose makes the poison.

True that--around here 8-9 mph over the limit is standard (I heard that from a judge), and 13-14 over is typical. 16 over is an overdose, and a blue light special. But trees give more latitude than the highway patrol; >80% crown reduction can be proper, just like retaining trees with >80% hollows. It's important to be reluctant in your deference--local knowledge and specific experience matter more than age or beauty or letters after one's name.

Airborne, like Del said, it's the response of the interior buds that prevents hard reduction from being outdone by fast growth at the cut ends. Trees tend to form new, "inner" (Gilman's term)crowns as they retrench. But yes at least one revisit to restore form by thinning sprouts has to be part of the plan. Here's an after pic of another tree; NO sprouts at the cut ends; new branches formed by the tree, right where they need to be. :msp_thumbup:

 

[Pelorus]

The leaf color on those epicormic oak sprouts (3rd photo) doesn't look "right" compared to other foliage on the tree. Curious when that work was done, and the current status of that limb those sprouts are growing from. Shigo mentions "Northern oaks cannot tolerate having their tips removed" p.433 NTB. I dunno if by "Northern" he was referring to a specific species, or the geographic location above a certain latitude.

 

[treeseer]

"The leaf color on those epicormic oak sprouts

those sprouts are endocormic, from dormant buds, attached to the core.

(3rd photo) doesn't look "right" compared to other foliage on the tree. Curious when that work was done, and the current status of that limb those sprouts are growing from.

i'll be back on it in a couple weeks, but those shoots are obviously young and not full of chlorophyll yet. the parent branch looked good, considering that it had just been substantially reduced.

Shigo mentions "Northern oaks cannot tolerate having their tips removed" p.433 NTB. I dunno if by "Northern" he was referring to a specific species, or the geographic location above a certain latitude.

red oaks in general are more sensitive, but it all depends on the amount of light getting to the reduced branch, etc. btw this is a southern red oak, q falcata, not q rubra northern, fwiw.