Rockin Old School Today

[a_lopa]

ahmen

 

[Lumberjack]

Your blanket statement of the kids isnt valid, IMO.

The way that a TL and a VT handle friction is totally different. The TL is on or off, the VT has a wide range between there, it isnt prone to locking up, is much more "tune-able" to a specific climbing style, weight, and climbing rope. The ease of uptake is vastly different between the VT and TL as well.

I also perfer progressive. New school and progressive are very similar, but still different. Like Chevy and GMC. Progressive is its at. New school (IMO) is all about using the latest techniques and gear just because its new. Progressive approaches everything with logic. They are more than willing to try something new to see if it works better, but they dont use it simply because its new. New school is a rather small click, just using new gear because its new and fancy, not because they have evaluated the practicality of it.

Another marker of old school is the lack of willingness to try new things, because the old method has severed for x number of years and someone they new did it and yada yada. This is a fluid buisness market, to make it well you must roll with the punches. Progressive is willing to try new things.

Old school: DdRT with no care to learn (much less try) new ideas like SRT, RADS, friction savers, slack tenders, ect...

I classify myself as progressive/new school. I dont spend so much time thinking about my "classification" but more on evaluating different gear and methods. I can use SRT to work off of or a simple ascend, DdRT to work off of or ascend (using friction savers and pantin), in my spare time I thought up a new idea (new to me) that is now marketed as the tree frog. Not saying at all that sherrill stole my idea, but I am saying I thought about the gear I use on most every tree, and what would be the simplist, most effiecent way to get to the top. The tree frog system is what I came up with.

I have ZERO problem with progressive climbers that stick to the old school techniques. What I do have a problem with is people who wont consider new methods and technology. People (like in my area) who climb on a freakin linemans belt and spikes. They think nothing of bear hugging the tree and spiking up if there buck strap wont reach around. Besides me, asplund is about the most tech. company in my area, but they are not in the same field as me. Those people annoy me, but I get over it quick. Just 2 weeks ago a local tree guy (dont know him) fell. Dont know the details. I just smiled thinking about the sterotype of what I think he is like and how they used to make fun of me and all my weird colored gear. Now, a mear 2 years later I am quickly building the reputation for being THE best in my area as a tree service company. I am amazed at the number of people that know my name that we have never done work for, but know we are "the people to call".

Progressive thinking is where its at. It applies to much more than just climbing style. Its a way of life.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Lucky you.
Round here they churn them out of college with all the latest tricks... and a grant to buy all the latest gear

 

[Eagle1]

Wow.....

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Doesent mean their any good mind, most set themselves up, realise how hard it is and give up after a year or 2. but they take a lot of business from established busineses. The domestic market is just about gone for us.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Cavers were the ones that learned how to work SRT years ago. All of the systems have been refined quite well. it's taken a while to get those systems into arborculture.

I read the first edition of On Rope probably twenty years ago. that's what turned me onto the value of SRT.

Lumberjack,

You did a nice job of fleshing out the subtleties of the schools.

 

[clearance]

Lumber-good for you, I am not a troll, thread is about old school, like spurs. I use a mix of both, always rappel with a t/l, doing r.o.w. work. I climb up, sidelimb the tree and reach close trees with a three extension pruner (Jamieson) and bust branches to get my clearance. This is the most productive method there is, not pretty, clearance not appearance. Fancy it is not, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[Jim1NZ]

New and ergonomic, job done, check

Old inefficient, job done, why bust your ass....

 

[Lumberjack]

Fancy it is not, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

You are old school non progressive.

Spurs themseves are not "old school". They are part of tree work. Old school would be the highly uncomfortable spikes that rub your leg raw. There is no need for that, that is old school. New school is carbon fiber spikes. Progressive is whatever suits you. I use buckingham steel with buc buc pads, but I am going to velcro with steel or caddy pads because I think they will be more comfortable. Thats progressive, always looking how to save energy and effort but adapting and overcoming.

Saying this is the most productive way is incorrect. There is always room to get better, but in your train of thought its as good as it gets. I constantly look for ways to improve speed/quality/and ease in my job and others. Its a mindset. I would bet a trip to the UK that I could shave time and effort off yalls day to day routine, which would increase output/money. But then again you wouldnt listen so its moot.

If the human race all thought like that we would still be living in caves and
we would be without jobs. Thank God we are different.


Tom, thanks for the compliment. I am planning to meet you in August, you did after all talk me into going.

 

[Ax-man]

Lumber-good for you, I am not a troll, thread is about old school, like spurs. I use a mix of both, always rappel with a t/l, doing r.o.w. work. I climb up, sidelimb the tree and reach close trees with a three extension pruner (Jamieson) and bust branches to get my clearance. This is the most productive method there is, not pretty, clearance not appearance. Fancy it is not, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

_________________________________________________________________

 

[Tree Machine]

This is a good discussion

The way that a TL and a VT handle friction is totally different.

They are both a friction hitch system, rope on rope to control friction.

I also perfer progressive. New school and progressive are very similar.

New School is inherently progressive, just by virtue of what it is. 'Stuck in their ways' mentalities simply don't climb new school techniques. But the difference is not in the 'progressive' vs the 'traditional'. You get that in all schools.

New school (IMO) is all about using the latest techniques and gear just because its new. Progressive approaches everything with logic.

Uhhh, new school is about climbing safely, swiftly, simply, efficiently and effectively. Of course, you'll apply that to progressive old school. That doesn't differentiate the schools.

Progressive is willing to try new things. Old school: DdRT with no care to learn (much less try) new ideas

Which Doubled Rope Technique are you talking about? DbRT or DdRT? This is a definite distinction between schools.

....like SRT, RADS, friction savers, slack tenders, ect...

In New School, SRT and RADS are daily routine. Friction savers and slack tenders do not exist in New School (DdRT)

I classify myself as progressive/new school.

Or super-progressive old school

Progressive thinking is where its at. It applies to much more than just climbing style. Its a way of life.

I love ya for that statement!

The difference between new school and old school lies in how friction is controlled. Hitch vs Device.
The second major difference is in the doubled rope technique employed for ascent into the crown. I feel the second point is the most important and distictive point that seperates the schools, in the broad, general blanket sense.

Like Tom, I also thank you for pointing out differences in ways of approach, differing mentalities toward the climb, but that's just differences in human beings. They're still climbing old school. You climb light years more effectively and safely than Joe Linemanbelt. But that still says nothing of how friction is controlled and which doubled rope technique is employed.

We're pounding out the differences between schools, not differences in technique.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Preach it.

 

[Tree Machine]

Come one come all to the new school ! The school of parallel-static ascents, controlling friction with frontware and the use of ascenders. Step into the world of 11 mm lines. Free yourself of tree-created friction. Climb single rope, double rope, drop RADS like they're second-nature my fellow man.

I say EMBRACE THE HARDWARE, my fellow citizens. Our new school is the old school of search and rescue, rock jocks and cavers. Let us step into the 20th century, adapt the world's latest techniques, ropes and methods, and apply them in the trees.

THIS,

my friends,


Is New School

 

[Tree Machine]

Did I preach it good?

 

[Stumper]

Jim, Er...... stepping into the 20th century would be regression. Perhaps you should ask for people to move up to the 21st century. Typical preacher's mistake-get rolling and use a dated cliche that shifts the hearer's focus to the faux pas instead of the intended point.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Hahaha.

 

[Lumberjack]

I like what your saying, however I think progressive uses/understands/can use when the situtation is right all methods.

I normally climb DdRT to the top, I have never climbed DbRT to ascend. I have the gear to climb SRT (ascenders) work off of SRT (Petzl Id) and complete the RADS system. I can use a blakes and body thrust if for whatever reason I dont have my gear and something HAS to be done. I dont see the point the ART friction devices, I can do the same thing using a tuned friction hitch, do it better most would say. I do use a ART friction saver, and its looking like I will be climbing on blaze soon (from blue streak).

The only clarification of my original point is that progressive knows the past methods that still have there rightful place, new school would be lost if they left home without ALL there gear. Thats the only diff I see in my usage of New School/Progressive. Progressive by deffinition means going from the old to a new (and perceived) improvement (or the deff COULD mean that, it does to me). Whereas new simply means its new, nothing from the past.

Its like die hard natural crotchers, they say they can do anything I can with my pulleys and this and that, but in reality they cant and they have no honest way of knowing what I can do with my gear. Just like a guy I knows, says that his time in the army (he washed out) was WAY harder than my time in ROTC. He has NO way to know, I could do his training, but he couldnt do mine because you have to be in college. He is a known BS'er, I called him out on it.

Progressive has options, I like options Good thread and discussion, no name calling, heck we are pushing the edge of professional adults.

 

[Old Monkey]

I work "old school." I have to move my gear from truck to truck every day and its a pain in the ash with just an average amount of gear. I see the benefits of progressive climbing and if I had harder trees to climb I might try some of it. Most of the trees I do are under 40' and easy climbs. I think there is a point of diminishing returns in regard to "new" climbing systems. It may be a sin to say this, but you can have too many toys and lose site of just getting the job done. Also, at the risk of getting slammed here, all of the progressive climbers I've seen have such new and shiny gear, almost like they don't work for a living.

 

[Lumberjack]

Al, thats the diff I was saying between progressive and strictly new school. New school uses new gear because its new, without regard that another method could save countless time.

 

[Tree Machine]

Well-said on all but the very last statement: New School using new gear because it's new. Again, that's more of a personal, human nature thing. That's called being a gear freak, we all know the type. Nothing wrong with it, keeps our arborist suppliers in business. Now, just because one climbs in new school doesn't make that climber a better climber, or allow him to position with absolute precision.

I like the picture you paint of progeressive guys knowing when and where to use what gear to perform what task. That's called experience, and the will to reach beyond your present limits and try new things with whatever you've got. That's a very good approach. It keeps you from getting stuck in time.

I don't do new gear just because it's new. I'll look at it and research it because it's new. For instance, I'm climbing on 7 year-old ascenders, and for the last 2 years I've wanted a set of USHBA titanium adjustable handle ascenders. However, they're not going to allow me to footlock any more efficiently, or make any more money, so they're not on the priority list. However, every 8 weeks I switch to a new descent device, or a new 11 mm rope, whichever I'm most in the mood for, because I like trying new things, and know that there's critical gear that hasn't even been invented yet. Always looking for that.

Options are where it's at. Versatility. Having the options, and knowing when and where to use them is progressive. Monkey says too many toys and there is the possibility losing site of the job getting done. Again, this is an experience thing, the seasoned pro knows what he needs and how to use it.

I too am appreciating that we can share this topic with the world without name-calling and flaming. We still have some distance to cover here.