Root rot caused by topping?

[kennertree]

When i took the pics i did a little poking around and all the roots seem pretty solid. The first time i looked i thought there was some dead bark so i tried to peel it off and all the bark was attached. I might have pulled off a piece or two, but nothing signifigant. If its not a fungus or bacteria in the roots, what is can be done to help the roots? I bought the arborist certification study guide a while back and other books on diseases. I plan on taking the test sometime in the spring. I havent studied much about root sytems yet so im not too sure what to do for it. I have a freind that is certified, i'll aks him to take a look and go for there. I'd be grateful for any other suggestions anybody has. Thanks for the replies.

 

[kennertree]

root pics

Well, Mike Maas gave me a lesson on how to resize pics so i uploaded one of them and put some red marks on the healing wood (I learned that advanced tecnique myself). I see that as a good sign, but still the overall condition might not be good. What do yall think? Is it too far gone? Do i need to get a piece of it and have it tested for fungus?

 

[skwerl]

Regardless of whether or not it lives, IMO that tree is not structurally sound enough to leave. Looks like at least half of the main horozontal roots are rotted away, removing any stability the tree might have during high winds. Compare that tree to a climbing rope with half the strands burnt away. It ain't broke yet but it won't hold very much strain either.

IMO it's a removal- period.

 

[Bermie]

Wow what a mess!
I think you're looking at a removal, those roots are not in good shape, even if they feel solid, what if any tensile strength do they have left? There will be rot in the crown too from the topping, the regrowth is probably weakly attached, and it appears the tree is near a fence and a road, so the target area is high risk. Even if you reduce the amount of regrowth branches, you are adding more wounds that will require energy to callus over, this tree is probably struggling with energy balance already, the whole root/crown, pathway thing.
Is the tree of historic value? Does it have outstanding aesthetic qualities? Can the target area beneath it be moved? If not, Bye-bye.

 

[treeseer]

Good job on redoing the pic. All the black stuff I see now does not look like Inonotus or any woodrotter. If you have the time you should spend $25 and read luley's book on Fungus in Trees. Then you can give more informed opinions and make a plan for care where one can be responsible made.

"Looks like at least half of the main horozontal roots are rotted away...it's a removal- period." Online opinions are often underinformed; you've got to think for yourself.

if root loss is not too severe, Restoring topped trees is a matter of thinning codominant and other crowded shoots and reducing the sprawling ones. SMall cuts where possible (pole pruner work), try to stay <20% but on a young maple like that you can go over if need be.

If tree has high value to client and you provide a disclaimer limiting your responsibility and some work is done at the same time to invigorrate the roots you can work to extend this tree's life.

 

[treeseer]

I also believe this tree is history.

Dan, you remember that big red maple we worked on in Richmond? The owners told me this week it looked fine this past summer even after they trenched it for irrigation lines. What % of those topping woulds was rotted, 80 or 90 % some of them? That and trunk infections, bad inclusions, you name it.

Yet at the owner's request it was worked on and kept. Target rating pretty high with the kids and adults walking under it regularly; did we do wrong?

 

[kennertree]

Thanks guys, alot of good advice here. I'm definately gonna spend that $25 on the fungus book. I'm going to suggest a removal but if he still wants to keep them I'm going to definately have him sign a waiver. One of the trees has many targets such as a mobile home and people walking under quite a bit. The other tree is far enough away from any structure that it might be worth keeping. If anything, the guy has learned what topping does to trees and i hope he tells all his freinds and neighbors. Just want to thank yall for sharing your knowledge with me as i learn how to properly assess trees. I'm still studying and looking forward to getting my certification as soon as possible.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If I were called to these trees I would recommend removal, period. If they decided that they wanted to keep them fine, it would be against my recommendation.
If they wanted to thin it out, or try to invigorate the roots, I personally, would walk away!
These trees are obviously very hazardous, and not getting any better. By working on the tree you are taking on liability, with or without a waiver.
You can't sign away your legal responsibilities, at best, the waiver might discourage the initiation of a lawsuit.

Every singe buttress root is severely damaged. Cutting one buttress root within a distance 5 times the tree's diameter is considered risky for the life of the tree because decay can spread into this area of the tree, which is so critical to its support. This tree literally has every buttress root damaged.
In addition to that, all the buttress roots are damaged and beginning to decay.
Did I mention the buttress roots?

 

[treeseer]

If they decided that they wanted to keep them ... I personally, would walk away!
These trees are obviously very hazardous, and not getting any better. Cutting one buttress root within a distance 5 times the tree's diameter is considered risky for the life of the tree

Mike where do you get this firm 5x criterion from, thin air?

Your vision must be excellent, to see this tree in TN so clearly from WI. It's not getting much better unless someone works to help the tree instead of hurting it.

If your boss told you to thin, reduce (<20%) and rootinvigorate, you would, right? The results may surprise you.

 

[skwerl]

Guy, your credibility is shrinking due to the fact that your first two posts you recommended removal, and then after Mike and I said the same you made an about face in order to contradict us. Once again your personal feelings drive you to make statements that appear completely irrational to any outsider.

 

[treeseer]

Better picture of the root collar made a big difference. Arborist's determination to sell tree care also made a difference. Hard to recommend anything definite from the computer; snap judgments make for a Rocky road, and I ain't talkin bout ice cream.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Guy, your credibility is shrinking due to the fact that your first two posts you recommended removal, and then after Mike and I said the same you made an about face in order to contradict us. Once again your personal feelings drive you to make statements that appear completely irrational to any outsider.

He lost me in this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=363895#post363895
where he recommends trying to prune a mature Oak straight or straighter, then agreeing that a huge limb, about 1/3 of the canopy, should be removed to accomplish this.
He doesn't like horizontal branches because they have too much weight, he doesn't like vertical branches because they have narrow crotch angles, leaning trees need to have a pick axe pounded in the soil and crown reduction, and now a crown reduction on a tree that was topped so severely that the roots are falling off at the trunk. I am totally miffed at the advise that he comes up with. :bang:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike where do you get this firm 5x criterion from, thin air?

This is one of the most rigorously studied areas of tree care, being as buttress roots and city sidewalks are in constant conflict. If cutting buttress roots and the trees reaction to it is new to you, I'd be very surprised.
The 5 times figure is of course a rule of thumb, and as you know thumb rules are generalities, base mostly on tree health, which in this case is about as bad as it gets. And even if you disagreed with this thumb rule, you wouldn't reduce the 5 times DBH distance in this case!

If your boss told you to thin, reduce (<20%) and rootinvigorate, you would, right? The results may surprise you.

My boss doesn't drink or do drugs.

But if he did, and wanted me to work on this tree, I wouldn't. I have to sleep at night, and I won't compromise my ethics for a few bucks. It'd have to be a lot of bucks.

 

[treeseer]

He lost me in this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=363895#post363895
where he recommends trying to prune a mature Oak straight or straighter, then agreeing that a huge limb, about 1/3 of the canopy, should be removed to accomplish this.

Mike I'm glad to disagree once in a while, but not if you're going to slander. I'm sure it was unintentional, but the most wounding I said that it looked like that tree should get is two small cuts 2" diameter. If you will read, you'll see I was asking pinus if HE was saying the whole limb should come off, and he wasn't. (Even though his native language is Estonian, he communicates facts clearly.)

You're cooking that up between your ears; please be accurate if you're going to quote somebody. There is medication available for those who are inclined to overreact to proposed activities like shortening branches; please consider some pharmacological intervention before you bust an aorta next time someone makes a reduction cut.

Back to the topped maple, if it was my tree I'd stillbe thinking replacement. If the owner wants to keep it there may well be ways to responsibly do that. We don't have enough data on our computer screens to make definitive proclamations on it, so let's mellow out here ok?

 

[skwerl]

The pictures are quite clear. Funny how you can look at other pictures and recommend 'crown reduction' in almost every case, but yet here you swing from 'removal' to 'crown reduction, fertilization, aeriation' simply in order to disagree with me and Mike.

adjusted personal attack...by Darin

 

[treeseer]

The pictures are quite clear. Funny how you can look at other pictures and recommend 'crown reduction' in almost every case, but yet here you swing from 'removal' to 'crown reduction, fertilization, aeriation' simply in order to disagree with me and Mike.
adjusted personal attack...by Darin

Now that the badmouthing is over, let's look at the bad chronology. The "swing" took place after the improved picture and read: "Better picture of the root collar made a big difference. Arborist's determination to sell tree care also made a difference. Hard to recommend anything definite from the computer..."
Brian musta missed that post cuz his was at the same time; no problem.

Kenner, why not take a screwdriver and push it into one of those rotten roots? Then measure how hollow it is compared to how thick it is and post the data here for Risk Assessment 102. There's a lot of professors here for you ; good move on getting your cert by the way!
For example, if trunks are 2/3 hollow they have lost 1/3 of their structural strength (depending on openness of cavity and other factors), therefore it's reasonable to judge roots the same way.

Trees are too valuable to make decisions on before the data are in.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

For example, if trunks are 2/3 hollow they have lost 1/3 of their structural strength (depending on openness of cavity and other factors), therefore it's reasonable to judge roots the same way.

That's a misinterpretation of strength loss formulas, in my opinion. That two thirds formula/rule of thumb, applies to hollow trees, trees that are hollow in the center. Not trees that have holes, cracks, or hollows that extend to the outside of the column. Those become compounding factors.
In addition, extrapolating that formula to damage at the bend in a buttress root as it meets the tree is really pushing it.

 

[treeseer]

"depending on openness of cavity and other factors"

Mike you must have missed this part. Kenner, Mike want to know the % of circumference that is open. Can you measure that for him? A trowel will open the way to making that measuirement.

extrapolating that formula to damage at the bend in a buttress root as it meets the tree is really pushing it.

In the picture it's the roots, not the trunk, that looks decayed to me. Anyway, what % in a buttress bend denotes in your mind a hazard that would call for mitigation?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Mike is write (dang it hurtz everytime i have to say that over the years!), most everything is outside diameter; violations to it preclude interior strength damage analysis IMLHO.

Something i haven't seen noted, is the damage/deterioration/ dryness damages the elasticity; this in turn makes the support system take on fuller capacity of the dynamic loading events. So, the weakend wood not only has the same loading put to it's tensile strength, but more loading than if healthy and elastic/ reduced dampening effect.

Another point would be to determine the worst damage around collar; and how it relates to the potential loading axises. Perhaps some trimming to make the weight bearing and wind load axises more favorable to the strongest support axises.

AS fer the rest of it; i'm content to sit back survey and L-earn in rounds of brainstorming without finger pointing. But, i guess there is only 1 forum here specifically set aside for that; to bad it's not contagious to the other forums hear!

 

[treeseer]

Something i haven't seen noted, is the damage/deterioration/ dryness damages the elasticity; this in turn makes the support system take on fuller capacity of the dynamic loading events. So, the weakend wood not only has the same loading put to it's tensile strength, but more loading than if healthy and elastic/ reduced dampening effect.

True that KC. there are often CODIT lines in decayed wood; behind them we must assume the uninfected wood is as elastic and strong as any. Infected-but-not-rotted wood has lost support, but how much and what kind depend on the infection.


Then there is woundwood, which has been measured to be 40% stronger than normal wood. This thickened wall at the edge of cavities tends to make up for strength loss from open cavities. All other things being equal, I tend to assume that strength gain from woundwood can make up for strength loss from openness of cavities.

kenner's red lines on the callus and woundwood point out some hope for the tree.