Safe Tree?

[Menchhofer]

I have a 32 inch dia soft maple tree in customer back yard.

The tree has center decay and hollow dia of about 24". Cavity opening approximately 10%. Probing down about 3-4 ft into the ground inside the trunk I find no sound wood, just decayed pcs and earth.
Tree has flared trunk and roots all seem to be sound and without decay. Tree has slight lean of about 10 degrees and target is home. Maple is about 90ft tall with full upper crown, lst limb starting at about 45ft.

This tree WAS a woods tree. House has been there only about 12 years. Tree does receive some protection from prominent west winds via large oak tree approx. 40 ft away.

From my calculations this tree is just about on the border of high risk using Bartlett Tree guidelines or Matthecks 32%.

Comments?

 

[Guy Meilleur]

How high does the decay column extend? Don't drill! Try a rubber mallet after probing up thru the cavity.

No cracking or fruiting bodies or black streaks?

Trunk lean 10%--what about crown shape and thickness?

Root disturbance/soil compaction,competing vegetation?

Woundwood quality around opening?

Comments after more data--pics would help a lot.

What species is "soft" maple? saccharinum?

 

[Menchhofer]

No fruiting bodies no cracks no black streaks.

Column decayed from ground to 8-9 ft

No root disturbance. Nothing out of ordinary regarding competing vegetation...some landscape yews.

Roundwood woundwood looks normal

Saccharum sounds right. Pics not available

Crown symmetrical, perhaps a little heavy on opposing side of cavity.

 

[Grigory]

I am not taken to give the recommendations, however I want to state the opinion. If I shall be wrong please correct me.
If to consider(examine) only mechanical durability of a tree, we have:
A tree with a diameter of a trunk D =32”
Hollow diametr d =24”
Thickness of a wall sound of wood t =(D -d)/2 =(32 -24)/2 = 4”
Whether but we take into account the bark thickness ? At such large tree the bark thickness can be 2 – 4” Bark does not give any mechanical durability to a trunk. Thus thickness of sound wood remains very little.
If the diameter of a trunk is given minus thickness of bark that, all the same by Mattheck (VTA) we have t / R = 4/16 = 0,25 that very little (< 0,32) such tree can be steady only if make crownreduction

 

[Toddppm]

I agree w. Grigory even though I don't understand his calculations!
The ones I've seen that failed like that usually collapse in on themselves at the base before they fall over. Leaning over the house it'd be gone if it was mine.
A picture might change my mind but I doubt it.

 

[NeTree]

I don't need arithmetic to tell me that the risk is unacceptable...

Cut that sucker.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Toddppm
The ones I've seen that failed like that usually collapse in on themselves at the base before they fall over.

Did they have dead weight taken out of the top first?

If my knees get weak, and I have a beer gut and a fat ass, I'd go on a crash diet before I'd have knee surgery.

The Bartlett and Mattheck formulas do not take into consideration the extra strength that woundwood has. Grigory has the right ideas. Look at the trunk closely and show or tell us what you see before we hear from any more of these armchair Kevorkians

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur


If my knees get weak, and I have a beer gut and a fat ass, I'd go on a crash diet before I'd have knee surgery.

Well put.

 

[murphy4trees]

You could use an old Native American technique and simply ask the tree... I had a little Q&A session with a small plant many years ago, so I know it can be done....
I dislike jobs when I have to argue a case against the client's position... I usually get a pretty good feel for what needs to be done... I've seen a lot over the past 23 years. I make the best recommendation for the client regardless of the effect on my bank account, and argue hard if necessary...
But what really gets me are those really really difficult calls.... If its a valuable tree or if it threatens some expensive property, I'll recommend calling in a Consulting Arborist... otherwise, I explain both sides to the client, tell them I can't make up my mind and let them decide.... or I'll ask to think about it a while, before making a recommendation....
Over the years I've cut enough trees off houses and cars etc.., so much so that I've become more inclined to remove a questionable tree rather than risk the damage.... But still, I'll hand off to the client.....

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
You could use an old Native American technique and simply ask the tree...
Does this involve getting really quiet and trying to see how the tree vibrates even when the wind isn't blowing? Share the technique if you can, willya? the formulas don't always tell the story.

I explain both sides to the client, tell them I can't make up my mind and let them decide.... or I'll ask to think about it a while, before making a recommendation....
Very smart thing to say--"I don't know".

 

[NeTree]

Sometimes over-analysis overrides common sense.

Cut the darn thing.

 

[murphy4trees]

Guy wrote:
Does this involve getting really quiet and trying to see how the tree vibrates even when the wind isn't blowing? Share the technique if you can, willya? the formulas don't always tell the story.

The answer is simple... just walk up to the tree and talk to it as if you were talking to a person you just met, in a very normal voice... Ask whatever it is you'd like to know.. That requires humility. Your mind will get in the way, if you let it, by telling you "this is silly, or stupid or crazy", or hoping no one is watching.. So it takes some work to achieve an open awarewness...
When you do achive that quietness of mind and receptive awareness, you'll hear the tree answer in your mind... it won't be like a thought... you'll actually hear it, out loud in your mind... its definitely phenominal..
How do you think that Natives all over the world developed such an encyclopedic knowledge of the use of herbs..... It was passed down in an oral tradition yes... but where did it start??? They didn't have labs or animal testing, double blind studies or the like... It was only logical to them... if you want to know what a plant is good for... just ask it...
For more on the subject I would recommend reading "Journey to Ixland" by Carlos Castenada.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by netree
Sometimes over-analysis overrides common sense.

Common sense is like common names--often obvious, but sometimes treacherously deceiving!

Just when does analysis go overboard? Better to withhold judgment than rush to it, grasshopper!

 

[jmchristopher]

Sometimes the client is the deciding factor. You can explain defects and targets all day. If the client is losing sleep when the wind blows, most of the technical stuff doesn't matter. If YOU are losing the sleep because the call is that close, that says enough, IMO.
A lot of it comes down to the question of what we consider the essential role we play - are we taking care of trees first, or of our clients?

 

[igetbisy]

I removed an oak tree (black oak) for a client once, sounds much like your tree, trunk was pretty hollow, but i didn't know to what extent, large cavity, full of ants, between a couple trailers in a trailer park. I went up and roped out a couple of the limbs on the side opposite of my intended target, if I decided to risk falling it. about 25 feet up, where it branched out, there was a hole heading down toward the trunk, so I became a little concerned about having to be tied into this thing at all. I tied my two bull lines to it, and came down. I then anchored one bull line about 90 degrees from direction of fall, and put the other on the truck, about 30 degrees in the other direction. tapped all over it with a mallet, looking for the thickest, and most uniform holding wood, and prepared to fall it, fell it, whatever.
It was the only time I have ever had to actually knock on doors, and ask the people to please come out of their home, and stand clear, I didn't like that at all, I don't do anything like this if I am not at least 99% sure of myself. but I had to compromise, and set pride aside for this one.
I made my face cut to about 1/3, mabye a little less, and things weren't looking good, I had about 2 inches of pecky, ant rotted holding wood on both sides, otherwise, completely hollow. so nervous at this point that the ants all over me didn't even register. now, I''ve got to count on the driver of the truck to be able to appreciate the nature of the situation, as well as follow my orders exactly, and without any delay whatsoever. my plan was to take up the slack, put a hold on it, make my back cut until i decided it was time, and just gun it, and dont stop untul it hits the ground, I couldn't afford to shake it at all until it was ready to go, It would have just come apart at the stump, and collapse. quite possibly right on top of me.
so I cut some, and started tickling it more and more, you should have heard some of the sounds this thing was making, it was talking to me alright, it was telling me that it was going to kill me.
all went as planned, and when it hit the ground, it desintegrated, even the limbs were hollow, ants had consumed almost the whole thing from inside out.
I think that if i had chosen to rope anymore out of this tree, It would have been a disaster, and a huge insurance claim.

 

[Lumberjack]

Good story tellin!



Carl

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
Better to withhold judgment than rush to it, grasshopper!

Kids...SSHEESH!

 

[SilverBlue]

Good post igetbisy, We slayed an ash yesterday, 90 ft hollow base to 20 ft, dead higher up, some alternating live sections… roped three limbs and the tree was so unstable that the others higher up had to be dropped.

So what’s the plan with this soft maple? It’s not getting any better with age.

 

[Menchhofer]

I have come up with almost identical figures as Grigory.

Mathmatically I believe the tree should be removed. If I have the time I will try to get a few pics of the cavity and the slight lean of the tree....regardless, it needs to be taken out.

 

[igetbisy]

Originally posted by Lumberjack
Good story tellin!



Carl

just out of curiosity, (doesn't bother me either way) are you implying that I made that story up? Quite fascinating if so.
In that case, there's more to this action packed adrenalin intense job!! As I said, it was in between two trailers, (in a trailer park, that is) and you're gonna love this, I fell it onto the road. canopy was arranged in a way that I felt it would cushion and slow the meat of the tree down enough that no damage would be incurred. didn't matter once it desintegrated anyway, but I had no idea it would come apart like it did.
Anyway, being in a trailer park and all, and specifically requested by the owner, the mess was to be cleaned up at the end of each day. We had arranged to drag it about 100 yards down the road to a lot where they would burn it, and haul the wood away.
well, the tree hit the ground, and exploded about 2 1/2 hours before dark, and the plan I was counting on was to just cut it into a couple of huge peices and drag 4 or 5 chunks down the road, and cut the wood off of it down at the empty lot the next day.
You ever find yourself in such a hurry that you have to run around like you're trying WAY too hard to prove that you're the hardest worker on the planet, and that you're capable of tying, and untying knots at a dead run? (slight exaggeration, but I'm just trying to hold up to my storry telling reputation)
well, pulled it off, came back the next day and spent about an hour cutting a little wood off what was left, and walked away with $900.00.
Ever get the bid at about half of the other bidders prices, and feel almost as though you were still a little high?
Or better yet, ever beat your competition and bid low enough that you got the feeling that the client began to question your professionalism because you were so low? truth is, takes the other guy twice as long, and he is half as safe, so his liability is 4 times as much!!!!!! (note: my ego isn't spilling out of my ears, as it must seem from that last comment, it really is that way around here!!)