Safe Tree?

[Lumberjack]

Nah... I liked the story. It was told well, IMO.

I have had to do the same thing, dropping the top in the street (low traffic residential street). I had a lighting struck pine, that was way dead. I climbed up, knock off several branches, and set the lines to pull the top 1/3-1/2 of the tree in to the street. The top couldn't go left because of the house, and I wanted the butt end to land in the grass, to protect the curb. I cut the notch, waited till there was no traffic , and out it went. It landed perfect, slightly tip top first, then collapsed down to the grass. Cleared the road, didn't cause any delays in the traffic. Took the rest of the afternoon and evening to get the rest of it cleaned up.


Carl

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Menchhofer
Mathmatically I believe the tree should be removed. ....regardless, it needs to be taken out.

Mathematical formulae are useful but they do not tell the whole story. If you don't know the answers to the below you can't make an informed decision.

How high does the decay column extend? Don't drill! Try a rubber mallet after probing up thru the cavity.

No cracking or fruiting bodies or black streaks?

Trunk lean 10%--what about crown shape and thickness?

Root disturbance/soil compaction,competing vegetation?

Woundwood quality around opening?

Comments after more data--pics would help a lot.

What species is "soft" maple? saccharinum?

 

[TheSurgeon]

ants are not known to consume trees

Originally posted by igetbisy
I removed an oak tree (black oak) for a client once, sounds much like your tree, trunk was pretty hollow, but i didn't know to what extent, large cavity, full of ants, between a couple trailers in a trailer park. I went up and roped out a couple of the limbs on the side opposite of my intended target, if I decided to risk falling it. about 25 feet up, where it branched out, there was a hole heading down toward the trunk, so I became a little concerned about having to be tied into this thing at all. I tied my two bull lines to it, and came down. I then anchored one bull line about 90 degrees from direction of fall, and put the other on the truck, about 30 degrees in the other direction. tapped all over it with a mallet, looking for the thickest, and most uniform holding wood, and prepared to fall it, fell it, whatever.
It was the only time I have ever had to actually knock on doors, and ask the people to please come out of their home, and stand clear, I didn't like that at all, I don't do anything like this if I am not at least 99% sure of myself. but I had to compromise, and set pride aside for this one.
I made my face cut to about 1/3, mabye a little less, and things weren't looking good, I had about 2 inches of pecky, ant rotted holding wood on both sides, otherwise, completely hollow. so nervous at this point that the ants all over me didn't even register. now, I''ve got to count on the driver of the truck to be able to appreciate the nature of the situation, as well as follow my orders exactly, and without any delay whatsoever. my plan was to take up the slack, put a hold on it, make my back cut until i decided it was time, and just gun it, and dont stop untul it hits the ground, I couldn't afford to shake it at all until it was ready to go, It would have just come apart at the stump, and collapse. quite possibly right on top of me.
so I cut some, and started tickling it more and more, you should have heard some of the sounds this thing was making, it was talking to me alright, it was telling me that it was going to kill me.
all went as planned, and when it hit the ground, it desintegrated, even the limbs were hollow, ants had consumed almost the whole thing from inside out.
I think that if i had chosen to rope anymore out of this tree, It would have been a disaster, and a huge insurance claim.

 

[TheSurgeon]

To: igetbisy

You may want to read some material by Alex Shigo. When people blame decay on ants, it just shows what knowledge they're missing...

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Ants won't cause a pocket of decay, but they can expand it. Try ripping through ant infested wood and look closely at the caverns. They do, in fact, extend through CODIT walls and into sound wood. These caverns are espesialyy bad for CODIT because once these walls are broken from within, there is no trigger to set up a second wall.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by dayman
Yipes! There sure are some confident analysts here. Without looking at the tree how can you say "cut it" ?

By our experience with similiar trees.

Doing some math to figure out a rough strength loss is all that can be done here.

Not "all..."

Lay out all the info that you can for the client. Let them know that they hold the resposibility and document Everything that you tell them. Give them dated copies of everything. Share your years of experience dealing with trees like this.

Of course!

What about lowering the crown some?

And distress an already stressed tree?


Please add to your profile, and qualify yourself.

 

[Stumper]

igetbisy,
I hope that in retrospect you realize that you should not have done what you did. Your post makes it clear that you were unsure of safely felling the tree. In that case you should have either explained to the customer that you could not safely perform the job or implemented a different plan-such as bringing in a crane or piecing from a bucket etc. I too have gone forward on some jobs where I should have passed but I don't want anybody thinking that "pull hard and hope" is normal, safe or acceptable operating procedure.:angel:

 

[murphy4trees]

Guy and al,
I haven't heard any discussion of the relative strengths of compression vs. tension wood in the analysis of decay.... Anyone ever heard of this being used as a criteria???

 

[NeTree]

igetbisy,

Had you known then what you know now, what would you have done differently?

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
I haven't heard any discussion of the relative strengths of compression vs. tension wood in the analysis of decay.... Anyone ever heard of this being used as a criteria???

Read July 2003 JoA article page 209. It should be in the ISA archives if you don't have a hard copy.
Woundwood measured 40% tougher than regular wood. This increase can be factored into strength loss equations.

netree, dayman is right about reducing top making tree more stable. Plenty of data to support this; search Wessolly and Tree Statics research, and just think about physics and common sense. No need to hear more of dayman's background tho that of course wouldn't hurt.

I question the judgment of armchair Kevorkians who say their opinion that removal is the way to go is based not on the scant evidence but on their "experience with similar trees".

Every tree is different. Every decision requires observations of that individual tree. Hope I'm being sensitive and humble enough for your comfort this time.

Mike's right about some ants expanding cavities. Those who wish to quote Shigo read p 99 ANTB: "...ants did spread beyond the center boundary. Natural systems are never absolute."
Mike's mind may be fairly closed on reduction pruning because he lives in cheeseland, but his eyes are open anyway.

 

[Grigory]

to murphy4trees

Selection of the publications on TreeMechanics. Lothar Wessolly

http://www.tree-consult.org/englisch/Pages/publications.htm

 

[NeTree]

 

[Dadatwins]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur


I question the judgment of armchair Kevorkians who say their opinion that removal is the way to go is based not on the scant evidence but on their "experience with similar trees".

My opinion is this tree probably should be removed also. Experience with similar trees (soft maple) tells me that the amount of decay decribed, size of tree, and target of house leave to much risk to keep. Homeowner makes final decision but they call a tree company to look at job and give estimate/ opinion of situation. Most times the person giving estimate / opinion has to rely on past experience of the 'what could happen' if tree fails. Decision must be based on species, location, and target. The average homeowner believes that since trees are made of wood they must be strong. They do not understand that some are stronger than others and can live with some decay.

[/i][/b]Every tree is different. Every decision requires observations of that individual tree. [/B]

Agree every tree is different but species and type of wood that make up each tree is a constant. An oak on either coast is still a hard wood tree and the wood has same characteristics.
I edited this post since my previous comment did not make sense to me after I re-read it.

 

[igetbisy]

Originally posted by netree
igetbisy,

Had you known then what you know now, what would you have done differently?

Honestly, the only thing I would have done differently would be to start a little earlier, and mabye calculating a little more liability factor into the bid. I don't regret not doing so, and I'm very thankful that my bid was better than the "timber faller" who lived in the park, and had a jack that he had intended to jack it over with. would have just torn it right off of the stump, and crumbled down on top of him and the trailer, I'm almost certain of that.

Stumper, are you completely sure that you are going to come home alive every day, probably not, since you are concientious about your limits, which is a good thing, I agree. So I assume you still get into a car, and drive down the road, where your life is not completely in your own hands. correct? But I'm sure that you can buckle up, and head on down the road comfortably knowing that you are on the ball, and trusting your decisions, and reactions, head right on into whatever situation you encounter while getting to where you need to go. correct? you come to a short, steep, muddy slope, you know that you can deal with it, but you may suggest to the wife and kids, that they might oughta get out while you get to the bottom of the slope, because nature doesn't always do what we expect, there's always that freak chance that the muddy slope may just turn out to be a landslide waiting for you to try to overcome it, or whatever.
If I would have needed a crane, I would have called one, If I didn't know what I was doing, You can bet your life that I wouldn't just went ahead and done my learning at the possible expense of others lives and homes. The one I put at risk was me, and I do that every day, its my job, its what I love, and its why they call us to do it.

About the ants, thanks, I'll do some checking into it, that makes it quite fascinating, because if you would have seen the way theese ants had built their huge colony entirely throughout the hollows of the tree , constructed from material from the hollow tree, before you knew that ants couldn't consume wood, you would probably been inclined to conclude that the ants consumed the tree.

Anyway, if there's any more radical critics out there, who get a thrill out of trying to tear apart someones post, please, feel free to tear into mine, I've learned how to accept it, with an open mind, and I have found it to be one of my more effective learning tools, as well as a way to more quickly become acquainted with whom you are really conversing with.]

Thanks to all.

 

[igetbisy]

Originally posted by netree
igetbisy,

Had you known then what you know now, what would you have done differently?

Please allow me the opportunity to hear what you wanted, or wondered if I would respond to that question with, sounds like you may have some valuable opinion, and/or advice to offer. Something that I'm overlooking.

 

[NeTree]

igetbisy,

I've never had anything major go wrong on a job (knock on wood!), but I've dented a gutter or two, and taken down my share of telephone/cable lines (mostly when I worked line-clearance... now THERE'S an irony, eh?)

Hindsight is always 20-20, and I always look back afterwards and say to myself, what would I have done different? - be it take a smaller piece, stronger rope, whatever. It's not the best way to learn, granted- but when things happen, we might as well gain SOMETHING from it to apply to future jobs.

I probably would have used a bucket or crane,- but I also have them, so maybe that wasn't an viable option for you. Given a choice of the two, I probably would have felt safer on the ground than in the tree as well- you can't fall from the ground

In your example, it's not my intent to "tear your post apart"; I was simply wondering if you would have done anything different.

Stay safe!

 

[Stumper]

Igetbisy,
Nor was it my desire to rip you to shreds. Your original post was worded in such a way that it communicated uncertainty on your part. I understand that there isn't really much certainty in life and undue worry about risks is neither healthy nor productive. However, having to ask people to leave their homes and the general wording you used gave me the impression that you were afraid that an uncontrolled fall/disaster was a real threat. In which case I think it is wiser to back away and recalculate the removal method rather than proceed. Maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion. An abundance of caution about other people's safety is not a bad thing. I habitually ask people to move vehicles that I know I can miss because having a potential target within range when it can be moved is unwise. Asking people who live in a Pringles tube to leave there home for a couple of minutes does make sense.:angel:

 

[igetbisy]

Thanks guys, I wasn't offended, I was serious about the tearing my posts apart, It's a great learning tool, once you learn how to take it. I am one of those who always tries to avoid offending others, and I find that sometimes, in order to be honest, and sincere, it's necessary to say things that are offensive, because nobody wants to hear that they are screrwing up, but if it's a friend, its your duty to tell them. this applies to every day communication with strangers also if you can learn to accept it, and take it for what it's worth, and here, peoples opinions can be worth alot, and if they get something out oftearing posts apart, then, tear into mine, and we both win.

 

[jamie]

critisism

on a similar note, all critisism can be a good thing, my boss pulls me aside time to time, he always feels that he is getting onto me, but hey if he has to get on at me, im doing something wrong, unsafe that i might have over looked / mis calculated the risk, he points it out, problem solved. i dont do it again, all part of the learning experience


jamie