Sand in my trees? Any good solutions?

[Fishin' Rod]

Clearing Siberian Elms yesterday and was going through sharp chains like crazy. As the sun started going down, I did start noticing a few sparks while cutting. I examined the first tree to spark, no fencing or any sign of human intervention. I actually think I was hitting sand grains.

Background: I was cutting elms just above waist-height and then treating with Remedy/diesel while the sap is going down. This is by far the sandiest ground on our farm. It is between two branches of the creek, and any big flood deposits a fresh layer of sand.

Question 1: Is sand the likely culprit?

Some of the sand is very fine, and can certainly get air borne during a stiff wind. These are "piss" elms and weep from every broken branch, etc. Could wind-blown sand stick to the truck and eventually be incorporated inside the tree?

This area does flood. I was cutting above the high water mark from our big flood three years ago. However, I suspect over the past 50 years there may have been an even higher flood. Would sand on flotsam during a flood have a chance of being incorporated inside of a tree?

Questions 2: Any advice for making my chains last longer before they start making sawdust?

I used both a new chain and some old hand-sharpened chains. Oiler was working fine. However, the cut was "wet" since these elms start weeping massively even this late in the year. (Just running Oregon 91VXL chains - Low Profile – Semi Chisel.)

Thanks for any advice.

 

[NSEric]

The sand is usually stuck in the bark and not the wood itself. If you peel the bark off it will save the chains but that's so much work you might as well sharpen the chain often.
Not many people tackle big elm trees with a small saw with 3/8 lp chain. Full size semi chisel chain holds up much better than the low pro stuff.

 

[Fishin' Rod]

Thanks for the reply.

I think(?) the material causing the rare sparks was within the tree trunk.

I thought the low profile chain was better for dirty jobs? (I cut a lot of smaller trees off at ground level where I might be driving equipment in the future.) Gets dull faster, but also easier for me to dress back up to reasonable sharpness.

Oregon doesn't even make a full chisel chain for my little Echo 400. However, Woodland Pro does make one with a full chisel cutter. (WPL 63RC62)

I was saving it for when I do have to tackle a some of my very large elms. Sounds like I should have used it on this job!

I have plenty more trees to clear in the same area. I will try the experiment with a slightly more aggressive chain, since that is all I can do without upgrading my saw.

 

[Franny K]

It isn't unusual to see some sparks as sunset approaches, there actually are 4 different kinds of sunset at weatherunderground.

If you get a rim drive kit oregon does make a chisel chain that could be used. This came up in a simple search Oregon used to make this type of stuff, maybe still do.
https://www.rotarycorp.com/product/14980

That vxl sharpens pretty easy I use either the vx or now px with the shorter smaller cutters or go to Stihl with bigger cutters in their 63 class. The Stihl seems to stay sharp quite long when new and more fussy about sharpening with a file for me. To get similar to like new lasting one needs to sharpen so both the top and side have no wear at all remaining. Cutting with the chips coming out at the bark and no bark debris being pulled through is advisable. For cutting off a root ball I plunge in and then all exiting chips.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Clearing Siberian Elms yesterday and was going through sharp chains like crazy. As the sun started going down, I did start noticing a few sparks while cutting. I examined the first tree to spark, no fencing or any sign of human intervention. I actually think I was hitting sand grains.

Background: I was cutting elms just above waist-height and then treating with Remedy/diesel while the sap is going down. This is by far the sandiest ground on our farm. It is between two branches of the creek, and any big flood deposits a fresh layer of sand.

Question 1: Is sand the likely culprit?

Some of the sand is very fine, and can certainly get air borne during a stiff wind. These are "piss" elms and weep from every broken branch, etc. Could wind-blown sand stick to the truck and eventually be incorporated inside the tree?

This area does flood. I was cutting above the high water mark from our big flood three years ago. However, I suspect over the past 50 years there may have been an even higher flood. Would sand on flotsam during a flood have a chance of being incorporated inside of a tree?

Questions 2: Any advice for making my chains last longer before they start making sawdust?

I used both a new chain and some old hand-sharpened chains. Oiler was working fine. However, the cut was "wet" since these elms start weeping massively even this late in the year. (Just running Oregon 91VXL chains - Low Profile – Semi Chisel.)

Thanks for any advice.

The cutters on that Ore 91 are small to begin with and don’t hold up well to anything but very clean, green wood, in my experience.
Frankly, I wouldn’t try cutting S Elm with that small a saw unless they were in the 6-8” diameter range. The sand is in the bark, as suggested. And yes, it will do exactly what you are experiencing.

 

[NSEric]

If you are going to stick with the echo 400, go on amazon and buy a 4 or 6 pack of 8ten semi chisel chains.
Oregon 3/8lp sucks compared to the knock offs and it cost more.
The knock offs have longer cutters so you can sharpen it more times before it's wore out and they're cheaper both oregon and the knock offs are kinda soft.

 

[diver64]

If you are going to stick with the echo 400, go on amazon and buy a 4 or 6 pack of 8ten semi chisel chains.
Oregon 3/8lp sucks compared to the knock offs and it cost more.
The knock offs have longer cutters so you can sharpen it more times before it's wore out and they're cheaper both oregon and the knock offs are kinda soft.

I bought an 8ten on Amazon for a larger saw and it's surprising good for the price.

 

[Tobystihl]

Bit expensive, but Stihl do a carbide toothed chain which are pretty good on soiled wood.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Bit expensive, but Stihl do a carbide toothed chain which are pretty good on soiled wood.

Unless they are resharpened to regular chain parameters they are too slow to bother with. Must have a diamond wheel to do this.

 

[Tobystihl]

Unless they are resharpened to regular chain parameters they are too slow to bother with. Must have a diamond wheel to do this.

Yes, good point, I failed to add that you can't hand file them!

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Yes, good point, I failed to add that you can't hand file them!

Once resharpened and rakers lowered to normal they will pull a little slower than semi-chiz. But, will stay sharp quite a while longer.

 

[Franny K]

Bit expensive, but Stihl do a carbide toothed chain which are pretty good on soiled wood.

a bit frustrating too as the Stihl drive link counts favor Stihl bars. There are diamond dremel type "stones" so a wheel on a bench type sharpener is not manditory. Also frustrating when chipping occurs. There are economy import carbide chains on ebay as well.

 

[Matt81]

Oregon doesn't even make a full chisel chain for my little Echo 400. However, Woodland Pro does make one with a full chisel cutter. (WPL 63RC62)

I was saving it for when I do have to tackle a some of my very large elms. Sounds like I should have used it on this job!

I have plenty more trees to clear in the same area. I will try the experiment with a slightly more aggressive chain, since that is all I can do without upgrading my saw.

Not sure why you would want to use full chisel as that is the worst thing you could possible use in abrasive and dirty conditions. Your 91VXL is a low profile semi chisel and it was blunting quickly so a low profile full chisel will dull even quicker. Plus if you force a dull full chisel to keep cutting it can mean severe tooth damage and more work required to file/grind it back to remove the damaged area of the tooth.

Best bet as someone already mentioned would be to buy some decent but less expensive semi chisel chains to suit your bar you have now to get the job done.

 

[Valpen]

Unless they are resharpened to regular chain parameters they are too slow to bother with. Must have a diamond wheel to do this.

The Stihl Duro chains do work reasonably well in stump level wood.
As mentioned they hold an edge much longer than regular chains but require special sharpening.
They are also very "fragile", if they hit a nail or small stone, the carbide teeth (that are welded to the chain link) tend to break right off...
I have one that is missing 10+ teeth that I save for really crappy stumps where I just don't care what happens to it.
The best solution may just be to have a couple of old worn out chains that you designate for stump work and sharpen often...

 

[singinwoodwackr]

All of the carbide chains are mainly designed for demolition, not wood cutting.

 

[thenne1713]

Clearing Siberian Elms yesterday and was going through sharp chains like crazy. As the sun started going down, I did start noticing a few sparks while cutting. I examined the first tree to spark, no fencing or any sign of human intervention. I actually think I was hitting sand grains.

Background: I was cutting elms just above waist-height and then treating with Remedy/diesel while the sap is going down. This is by far the sandiest ground on our farm. It is between two branches of the creek, and any big flood deposits a fresh layer of sand.

Question 1: Is sand the likely culprit?

Some of the sand is very fine, and can certainly get air borne during a stiff wind. These are "piss" elms and weep from every broken branch, etc. Could wind-blown sand stick to the truck and eventually be incorporated inside the tree?

This area does flood. I was cutting above the high water mark from our big flood three years ago. However, I suspect over the past 50 years there may have been an even higher flood. Would sand on flotsam during a flood have a chance of being incorporated inside of a tree?

Questions 2: Any advice for making my chains last longer before they start making sawdust?

I used both a new chain and some old hand-sharpened chains. Oiler was working fine. However, the cut was "wet" since these elms start weeping massively even this late in the year. (Just running Oregon 91VXL chains - Low Profile – Semi Chisel.)

Thanks for any advice.

YES, sand is likely issue, and NO advise to improve felling other than carrying 4-6 chains to felling site. You can touch up 3-4x w/ file at site, then change chain and bench grind nightly. Milling can be preceded by pressure wash or debarking at the mill.

 

[huskihl]

It can have sand in the bark but the way Elm crotches out usually there’s some foreign matter inside the wood also. I’ve cut some that I could only get one cut with a full chisel 36” and had to sharpen it. A chipper style semi chisel made 7 cuts before re-sharpening

 

[pdqdl]

I had an oak tree recently that was trashing my chains as fast as dipping it into the dirt. The problem was some darkly pigmented wood inside the 2 foot diameter ring, and this tree was approaching 4' diameter. I went through a lot of chains that day.

When the tree finally fell, I took pictures and tried to figure out what kind of wood could be so hard, but I have never learned the answer. There was no evidence of decay or weakness, and the "hard" wood was not any part of an enclosed bark fork. It was just a circle of damned hard wood well beneath the bark layer. BTW: it was throwing sparks, too.

Yes. You could also have things happening on the inside of the tree dulling the saw. Soils derived from volcanic ash or those rich in clay often have higher levels of bioavailable silica. Waterlogged or periodically flooded soils often promote silica uptake. When soil is saturated, dissolved silica becomes more available to plants, leading to greater absorption. For instance, trees in wetland or floodplain areas may exhibit higher silica concentrations. Somewhat higher pH levels contribute to this observation.

 

[Valpen]

From the Stihl website - https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/saw-chains/pd3/

"The STIHL PICCO™ Duro 3 is a low-profile, low-kickback chain specially designed for longer cutting edge life. Precision-welded carbide cutting edges make the STIHL PICCO™ Duro extremely hard —keeping it sharp up to four times longer than standard saw chains. It also provides reduced vibration for comfortable operation.
Because of its long cutting edge life, it is especially suited for cutting dirty wood, treated wood, roots, and hardwoods. The PD3 requires less frequent sharpening and must be re-sharpened with a formed diamond grinding wheel.


Applications: The PD3 is ideally suited for cutting dirty wood, treated wood, roots, hardwoods —even cement-encrusted formwork boards —on job sites."

They don't mention how fragile the teeth are when hitting a nail etc....