Selective thinning and timber care

[CoreyB]

Hey guys I have 40 acres af timber that has not really been touched in over 40 years other than a little bit of firewood gathering . It is mainly oak and hickory. There is a lot of dead standing oak . Now one question Wich wood is more valuable oak or hickory. And how thin should it be to promote the best overall health. I would like my grandkids to be able to enjoy this timber and Evan be able to harvest some for a profit.
I only have a handful of walnut and the elm has been dieing off. There is also some maple (silver I think) any input would be great to hear.
I have thought about clearing 3 acres and start planting a row or two of walnut every 5 years.

 

[no tree to big]

Well just totally winging it without knowing density, age, land contours, yada yada yada... i would remove all silver maples on the face of the planet then remove all standing dead damaged and diseased. Then if there are any that have caracteristics that would cause future failures those would be next on my list.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[northmanlogging]

Hire a forester, or contact a local reputable logger, they will know more about your local markets and tree health.

Having said that if you wan't to go it alone, call some local mills, ask about prices, species and specs. Then its up to you to decide what you want to grow or die. Be aware though that timber prices are prone to massive fluctuations, so what say hickory is worth today might mean nothing next year. For intsance Western Red cedar, was $350 per 1k bf 4 years ago, its over $1200 now.

There are many other things to consider, such as erosion, secondary trees (shade trees), harvest methods, compaction, fire danger, cleanup, pulp prices... A bit more to it than meets the eye.

 

[CoreyB]

One local mill (50 mi away) came and only looked from the road and never contacted me back. Guessing that with logistics and truck restrictions it would not be profitable enough. Trucks would have to go 30 mile extra each way.
They also would not give me a price if I brought it to them, they said they like to bid the whole land and harvest it themselves. (Seemed off to me)
The local forest said it would be $500 to come walk the land and write a plan.
That seemed a bit expensive but maybe that is a fair price but $500 would really not be good for my bank account.
I have enough dead standing trees, over 60 that are over 18" and easy access and probably just as many if not more crazy leaner again many over 18" it keep me busy for the next two years or more.
I fear that it is the density that is causing or at least playing a part in losing of so many trees. But maybe I am wrong.
Again thank you for all the input it really does help.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I don't think you are wrong. It's a natural process.
The trees will compete for which is called crown competision. A self thinning process. "He/she" who has the most live crown wins. The dominant ones grow above, the shorter ones slow down due to less light and will continue to lose more lower crown slowing the process even further until death.

If you have a tree with no competition in the middle of the yard the lower branches will grow a lot thicker and remain for many years opposed to a tight stand. If you have 100% live crown and pune much over 50% of the tree heighth, you will stunt the annual leader for years to come.

There may be other issues with the stand that you could figure out.

*Like..Google the common diseases/insects ect that these trees are susceptible to and see if you have signs of this in your stand.

Also you should be able to see a nature spacing interval between Dom trees providing there is no other problems.
Also Half your inter-tree distance on your natural voids you should target.
Spacing will reduce the elongation efect and produce thicker logs but some stands are more valuable with density for over all volume. It's all about purpose/ application.

 

[Gypo Logger]

For the long term benifit of the forest and subsequent commercial cuts, it sounds like a precommercial cut may be in order.
Just logging it makes no sense, unless the end result is pavement or more urban sprawl.
If you want carrots you have to weed your garden.

 

[madhatte]

60% of what I do for a living is plan thinning operations. What I can tell you from this side of a computer screen is this: Hire a local forester to get an idea of what's in there today, and what it can reasonably be expected to do in the future, both with and without a harvest entry. If you're interested in learning how the planning works, I'd suggest reading up on prescriptions pertinent to your locale. This Google search ought to get you started. As for "more valuable", you are asking a loaded question, especially as markets are consistently shifting. In general, if you want to harvest grade, you have to first grow grade, so that means you'd best get crackin' on a long-term management plan.

The local forest said it would be $500 to come walk the land and write a plan.
That seemed a bit expensive but maybe that is a fair price but $500 would really not be good for my bank account.

$500 is cheap. Figure $25/hr, that's only 20 hrs to cruise, process and write up a plan. I'd never sell my time that short. Knowledge doesn't come easy, or free. My guess is the labor is heavily subsidized by state or other government at that rate.

 

[Gypo Logger]

As mentioned already, a forestor is major part of the equation, if all can agree to a prescription.
It's not just about trees and money, wildlife, recreation and aesthetics should be considered.
Never mind, just go do what everyone else does. Pound, pilage, pilpher and pulp with impunity.
John

 

[CoreyB]

As mentioned already, a forestor is major part of the equation, if all can agree to a prescription.
It's not just about trees and money, wildlife, recreation and aesthetics should be considered.
Never mind, just go do what everyone else does. Pound, pilage, pilpher and pulp with impunity.
John

Good news is I got the appointment set up for our local forester. Bad new his schedule is booked so may be spring before he can get to us. But I have so many dead standing and on the ground I could cut all winter and not even get to it all. That is not to even mention all the crazy leaners that should probably come out.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Good news is I got the appointment set up for our local forester. Bad new his schedule is booked so may be spring before he can get to us. But I have so many dead standing and on the ground I could cut all winter and not even get to it all. That is not to even mention all the crazy leaners that should probably come out.

Blessing in disguise. You can't go wrong establishing trails to get at the dead, down, dying and leaning.
Forest access is a prime consideration at this point, but try to not damage your crop trees while extracting the low grade.
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

Making trails is a science, a passion and an art. It should be a herring bone pattern, where the residual stand is left undamaged.
If it's in your blood,working in the woods is the best thing that can befall anyone, even you if you only make a meager existance at it.
John

 

[bitzer]

It sounds like you have oak wilt. Take the merch oak out, leave the hickory. Call a dnr forester. They may be free for a counsultation. Where are you located? Oak is always worth more than hickory here.

 

[CoreyB]

It sounds like you have oak wilt. Take the merch oak out, leave the hickory. Call a dnr forester. They may be free for a counsultation. Where are you located? Oak is always worth more than hickory here.

I will try dnr and see what all they offer.
I am in mid west Illinois.
Is there an easy way to identify oak wilt?

 

[madhatte]

Have a look at this, paying close attention to the margin of color change on the leaves. The fungal mats (also known as mycelial felts) will be harder to see, and the beetles are a secondary effect which may be caused by other agents.

 

[bitzer]

I will try dnr and see what all they offer.
I am in mid west Illinois.
Is there an easy way to identify oak wilt?

Typically die off occurs in a circle. Like in the link Madhatte posted. Im in SE WI. Trees don't just die in numbers because the woods needs to be thinned.

 

[Gologit]

60% of what I do for a living is plan thinning operations. What I can tell you from this side of a computer screen is this: Hire a local forester to get an idea of what's in there today, and what it can reasonably be expected to do in the future, both with and without a harvest entry. If you're interested in learning how the planning works, I'd suggest reading up on prescriptions pertinent to your locale. This Google search ought to get you started. As for "more valuable", you are asking a loaded question, especially as markets are consistently shifting. In general, if you want to harvest grade, you have to first grow grade, so that means you'd best get crackin' on a long-term management plan.



$500 is cheap. Figure $25/hr, that's only 20 hrs to cruise, process and write up a plan. I'd never sell my time that short. Knowledge doesn't come easy, or free. My guess is the labor is heavily subsidized by state or other government at that rate.

Best advice yet...and from somebody with a proven track record.

 

[madhatte]

Thank you kindly!

 

[treeslayer2003]

hey Bitzer, hickory is right up there with red oak in the winter months here. i think though that is because of the poplar market here. [white wood]

 

[bitzer]

hey Bitzer, hickory is right up there with red oak in the winter months here. i think though that is because of the poplar market here. [white wood]

Your hickory is probably all nice and clean tho.

 

[CoreyB]

hey Bitzer, hickory is right up there with red oak in the winter months here. i think though that is because of the poplar market here. [white wood]

Are you meaning for firewood or for lumber? Hickory burns great and use a lot for firewood myself.