Sequoia, or Sequoia swing???

[tree md]

Likewise!

Let's see, if I were to make a trip to IN to help TM what would I need... Saddle, climbing line, gear bag... I'm sure he would have a rigging line and saw...

Of course, I could just bring me, myself and I and run the GRCS from the ground on a bigun...

 

[D Mc]

There was a previous post about how a saddle should ride below the hips. I tried that today, with an average setup of gear and found while climbing up through limbs and such, tending slack (on tree more than on rope) the saddle.... you guessed it... wanted to peel off.

Because this is the Arborist 101 section of this website and a lot of new and young climbers are trying to gain knowledge by reading these posts, I will stick with this discussion a little while longer.

Posting what appears to be definitive examples by misapplying information and products does not prove a point. My exact words were: "A properly fitted leg strap saddle will allow the waist belt to sit low on the hips, below your pants belt. In most cases, this will also require shoulder straps."

There were several factors that you ignored or misunderstood. I did not say "below the hips", I said "low on the hips, below your pants belt". This was preceded by the qualifier of a "properly fit leg strap saddle" NOT in reference to a bosun seat saddle. The two have entirely different design criteria. And then followed by "this will also require shoulder straps", in most cases.

All of you looking to properly fit a saddle, whether it be a bosun seat or a leg strap...do your homework.

These are significant points that should not be ignored. The original poster was asking for information on fit and usefulness between the two types of saddles.

Hijacking a thread with pictures demonstrating really bad form will be of little help in answering his questions.

Dave

 

[S Mc]

To all new climbers or ones looking to try something different, there are many styles of saddles made because of the many styles of work and body configurations.

That is the point DMc has been trying to make, which seems to be bypassing some. There is a natural inclination to feel that if something works for you, THAT is the best system to use. And it is, for you.

There is ALWAYS a danger in misreading information and then misapplying it. Read and research carefully.

David (DMc) has been climbing for over 40 years...more than TreeMachine and TreeMD combined. His years of experience and preference for leg strap saddles do not cause him to give biased advise because he understands the need of each person to determine which suits their needs the best.

Sylvia

 

[tree md]

My comments were not meant to be a slight to Dave and I realize that he has twice the years in the saddle as me. He would be in the majority with climbers who do prefer a leg loop harness so most are obviously making it work for them. I for one am just tired of hearing it misrepresented that bosun seat saddles make a climber less mobile or are somehow restrictive. I have heard this for years with really no debate from the other side. After seeing the available choices for seat saddles becoming fewer and fewer I figured it was time to open my mouth and let the industry know that not so fast on limiting there production. If you feel a leg loop saddle is right for you then more power to you but don't say that we who prefer seat saddles are less mobile climbers. I'd take that bet with any leg loop wearing climber any day of the week.

 

[Tree Machine]

. My exact words were: "A properly fitted leg strap saddle will allow the waist belt to sit low on the hips, below your pants belt.

There were several factors that you ignored or misunderstood. I did not say "below the hips", I said "low on the hips, below your pants belt".

I took that to mean below the hip bones, but said 'below the hips'.

There is ALWAYS a danger in misreading information and then misapplying it. Read and research carefully.

Sylvia

Dave and Sylvia,

My apologies. I stepped out of line. Looking back on my posts, objectively, it just looks like I'm showing off. My bad. Please forgive.

I can try to defend why I chose those particular images, but there is no reason, other than that a spikeless, commercial Arborist can end up in an endless array of positions, and sometimes needs to carry substantial weight, a saddle needs to stand up to that. In repeating myself, regardless of body types, the saddle really must accomodate the climber, and not the other way around. Comfort is one necessary facet, but it's far from the only important point.

In a saddle which sits below the belt line, I must admit, this is foreign to me. It seems somewhat counterintuitive, but without my actually trying this with a saddle designed for this, I will not pass judgement. In fact, in respecting the experience of those with far more experience than I, I offer my willingness to buy a low-rider. I will put my money where my mouth is. Having an additional new saddle is not a bad thing, in my world. I promise, though, once I own it I will torture the thing the same way I do the beefy and industrial-duty Versatile.

It seems you are not talking about a Sequoia, or a Sequoia Swing, so at the risk of a momentary derail, I will ask permission of the readership to invite you to spotlight this style of saddle.

Is there a specific saddle you recommend, Dave? Please, assume I am a customer who has chosen, sight and price unseen, this saddle you refer to, based on your recommendation, respective of your extensive career in the climbing world. I honor this level of dedication, so tell me all I need to know, then I will contact the manufacturer directly and order one. I am being 100% truthful in stating this, assuming it is not designed for the recreational climber. I am a working Arborist. I need a saddle to accommodate all that I do on a day-to-day basis. I hope this is crystal clear.

The stage is yours. Tell us about my new low-rider leg strap saddle.

 

[D Mc]

... regardless of body types, the saddle really must accomodate the climber, and not the other way around.

Absolutely, this is what I have been saying.

There is a popular poster that shows a row of normal forks in which one is twisted and bent with the caption "just because you are unique, doesn't mean you are useful".

We are all unique, we all have different requirements in the jobs that we do. In order to become useful, we need to be able to exploit those differences to our advantage.

This is the primary reason why no one saddle will work for everyone and, even among the many using the same saddle, you will find many variances in fit and attachments to assist that individual in optimizing his work.

I wish I could tell you of a saddle that will work perfectly for you, but I can't. The bosun seat saddle seems to work well for you. You have a Sequoia Swing sitting on a shelf that has never been tried? Go ahead and try it. It looks like a really well made saddle. I know the D rings are small but the O rings on the bridge are rated attachment points, so that gives you more options.

For you and others in experimenting with saddle fit, you have to understand that where the climbing rope attachs is a focal point divided by your waist belt and leg support system. The further those attachments are spread out, the more stable they are. Think of a spreader sling when lowering a horizontal branch.

However, stability restricts mobility. For long hang times, such as cabling or crane work, comfort and stability is very good. When moving around the canopy mobility is required. So a saddle should be able to accommodate these different criteria.

If you move the points of contact on your body closer together you will be more mobile. This is what happens when a bosun seat slides further up on your butt when you move throughout the tree. With the legstrap saddle, this is accomplished by the placement of the waist belt. The waist belt being closer to the leg straps will allow full movement with very little restriction. This also frees up the upper torso, even with suspenders.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help on this. I have optimized my own requirements and have focused my research and development on what works for me. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily help anyone else.

Dave

 

[Tree Machine]

A number of valid points. Blanket statements that cover the world of saddles, in general.

However, stability restricts mobility.

Stability restricts mobility, though? So a less stable geometry allows better mobility? I'm trying to not mis-read or misinterpret this statement, but have to seriously question this. I am not here to nitpick what you say, just get clear, understandable information on the table.

For you and others in experimenting with saddle fit, you have to understand that where the climbing rope attachs is a focal point divided by your waist belt and leg support system. The further those attachments are spread out, the more stable they are.

I feel in a bosun system, your focal point is not divided between leg support and waist. Ideally, you are sitting suspended inside a triangle, focal point of force at the top, the other two points of the triangle to each side of your hips, separated by a batten board to keep that bottom leg of the triangle stable and your hips from being crushed inward. There is very little involvement of your back strap unless you lean back, then begins a shift in balance from 100% support under your butt to a sharing between butt board and back strap. Horizontalness, however, is momentary in climbing trees. For the most part a climber climbs and work-positions more or less vertically oriented.

I also invite anybody to suggest ANY geometric configuration in nature that is more stable than a triangle. If you do, please quote and reference your source.

I wish I could tell you of a saddle that will work perfectly for you, but I can't.

That's not what I'm asking. You're being invited to share a particular saddle, based on its own merit, based on what you just shared in the previous post. Specifics, not generalities. What are its advantages? Why might it be the best choice for a climber. Don't be shy, this won't be a flame-fest. This is an educational setting and I want to learn and then buy a world-class leg-strap saddle. I don't dog any piece of gear because I have a personal preference for something else. My preference revolves around specifics in performance, which includes versatility, advantages, safety and overall effectiveness. My impressions can only come after some real-live use. so,....

The stage is yours. Tell us about my new low-rider leg strap saddle.

 

[jsk]

saddle

I would live to know of a few good leg strap saddles that guys love. I have a weaver cougar with a bosun seat and I really like it alot. I would like to have a good leg strap saddle also. I lovethe knowlegde that vetran guys share here. I also love thae atatment that a older guy told me once. Pay attention I have forgetten more then you will learn inthe next year. I wish thatI had a local guy yet that was awsome to teach me more. I learn from here and books now and from expirence.
jason

 

[TreeLogic]

Been climbing in a Sequoia for years now. Just got the Sequoia Swing. Only batten style I've used prior was a Buckinham Traverse. Let me be clear that I'm saying nothing about batten/bosun seat saddles in general, as it seems to be a hot topic. I do not like the Sequoia Swing. I love the standard Sequoia. The Traverse on the other hand, was not a problem, because the ends of the batten seat had bends, that formed around your legs. The Swing is just a stiff board. My chainsaw strap catches on the end of it like crazy. When turning, i slide down the seat one way or another, never really getting a good balance point with the sliding bridge, except in the center. And when everything is adjusted so that the seat sits right, you can't wear the saddle on the ground, or the leg loops drop below your knees and trip you up.

IMHO, batten seat saddles are fine. They're not my preference but I've seen some great climbers in them. The Swing? I'm surprised it has gotten the reviews it has. Petzl is an awesome company though. I cant tell you how many items i carry with their name on it. And they're sending me leg loops, so I can change my new Swing back into the standard Sequoia I'm used to.