Shaver furnace install confused........

[ngzcaz]

At least a half dozen of my friends have wood boilers in which they have two lines running from furnace to house. They had oil burners ( as I have ) with a hot water coil. They simply run the water from the furnace back to the house in a continuous loop. The hot water in the oil burner jacket heats the potable water as it did before. No mixing of the waters occur. They simply dial down the thermostat on the oil burner and allow the system to work as before. Only difference is the wood boiler does the heating instead of the oil.
These systems have been operating anywhere from 3 to 7 years w/out any failures.

1. Why are the dealers telling me I have to run 3 to 4 to 5 lines of pipe for an install ? Shouldnt it be just 2 possibly three for a fill line ?

2. Since the potable water is being heated by the water jacket ( via the hot water coil ) why do I need the hot water coil in the wood furnace ? They are separate lines for domestic vs the hot water circulating for the heat just like they are now. The only change is that the heat comes from the owb in a continuous loop from the owb to the oil burner water jacket and back.

3. Again, dealers are telling me I have to use a heat exchanger for the potable hot water. Isnt that what the hot water coil in the oil burner supposed to do ? I can understand a heat exchanger if I run lines out to my garage but why otherwise ??

4. Whats the deal with the pressurized system I now have ( 12 to 15 psi max ) and the atmospheric pressure in the wood boiler ? How is everyone else doing it without any mods ?

5. Is there a certain type pex pipe ( I'm understanding class A to be the one thats expandable ) I want ? While I will spend the money for the insulated pipe, is there a more cost effective way to accomplish the same thing?

Any other tips or advice would be helpful. Experienced views are most welcome, especially if someone did essentially the same as above.

:greenchainsaw:

 

[rx7145]

At least a half dozen of my friends have wood boilers in which they have two lines running from furnace to house. They had oil burners ( as I have ) with a hot water coil. They simply run the water from the furnace back to the house in a continuous loop. The hot water in the oil burner jacket heats the potable water as it did before. No mixing of the waters occur. They simply dial down the thermostat on the oil burner and allow the system to work as before. Only difference is the wood boiler does the heating instead of the oil.
These systems have been operating anywhere from 3 to 7 years w/out any failures.

1. Why are the dealers telling me I have to run 3 to 4 to 5 lines of pipe for an install ? Shouldnt it be just 2 possibly three for a fill line ?

2. Since the potable water is being heated by the water jacket ( via the hot water coil ) why do I need the hot water coil in the wood furnace ? They are separate lines for domestic vs the hot water circulating for the heat just like they are now. The only change is that the heat comes from the owb in a continuous loop from the owb to the oil burner water jacket and back.

3. Again, dealers are telling me I have to use a heat exchanger for the potable hot water. Isnt that what the hot water coil in the oil burner supposed to do ? I can understand a heat exchanger if I run lines out to my garage but why otherwise ??

4. Whats the deal with the pressurized system I now have ( 12 to 15 psi max ) and the atmospheric pressure in the wood boiler ? How is everyone else doing it without any mods ?

5. Is there a certain type pex pipe ( I'm understanding class A to be the one thats expandable ) I want ? While I will spend the money for the insulated pipe, is there a more cost effective way to accomplish the same thing?

Any other tips or advice would be helpful. Experienced views are most welcome, especially if someone did essentially the same as above.

:greenchainsaw:

1. Yes only two lines.

2. Not sure what you mean. The potable water will be heated the same way as it is now in the oil burner. But the water will be heated with the OWB.

3. Yes it is but you need a way to get the heat to the orignal boiler water. You could use a heat exchanger or run the orignal boiler water in with the same water as the OWB. I would use a heat exchanger so you could use each system indepent of each other.

3. Again I would use a heat exchanger.

4. I would do some searching on this site and see if you find the anwsers you are looking for.

 

[LTREES]

I am waiting for my Shaver unit, I should get it very soon. I have not figured out everything yet, but I will share what I have learned.

1. Run 2 1" lines of good pipe and insulation. buy a heat exchanger to keep the house water and the boiler water separate. ( some people depressurize their boiler, I'm not comfortable with that.)

2. You can run a line off of your water supply ( I'm going to use my hot water off an indirect water heater) to the return line of the wood boiler, then put a T in the return at the stove and run it up to the fill hook up. I"ll have to put shut off valves in the lines so I can direct the water to the fill and then turn it off when it is full.

3. The line for the pottable water is not used if you are going to use the coil in the oil boiler. I'm going 1 step further and bypassing the coil and hooking up the indirect hater heater, it will save $ in the summer when I heat the water w/ oil.

4. I think you will save $ in the long run if you use good under ground pipes. the simple fact that the return water will be at a high temp so the burner wont fire up as much, thus saving wood. I think a few extra $ now will save alot of $ for the next 30 years.

5. If you try to do your best u might as well get good pex for in the house. type 'A' with oxygen barrier.

hope this helps, let me know how things turn out. If anyone thinks I'm off key, let me know. :monkey:

 

[Windwalker7]

With a shaver, you can run seperate pairs of lines. One pair for the heat exchanger in your duct work and another pair for potable hot water tank. That means four lines.


Other companies just run one pair of lines. They use those to feed hot water to both heat exchangers. One in the duct work and another heat exchanger for hot water tank.


I'm not sure why dealers are telling you to use a heat exchanger for the hot water tank. You are just going to pump water into the hot water tank through the drain valve at the bottom of the tank and out the pressure valve at the top. No heat exchanger is needed.



I believe the type "A" pex pipe means that it has a layer of aluminum in the layering of the Pex. I will not be using this type.



Hope this helps and doesn't just confuse you more. I'm waiting for my Shaver 165 to arrive and have been driving myself nuts trying to get things ready for its arrival. I still have lots to do.

 

[LTREES]

You got me

 

[ngzcaz]

I've been doing a fair amount of reading on this stuff and thought all should know there are lawsuits against the pex/al/pex pipe pipe which was supposed to be the best. I will use the class A insulated pipe which I found several dealers on the internet selling this stuff.
Their prices are approx 3.69 to 4.20 a foot for the insulated stuff. While this sounds extremely cheap, note each has a minimum $ 135 or more shipping. And thats to a business address, add 75 to a private residence.Prices around here are approx 10 to 12 bucks a foot. I'm ready to order but dont want to be scammed. These sellers have been around for years and are powersellers which simply means they sell a lot of stuff.
If anyone has experience w/ this sellers, please share it asap.

 

[ngzcaz]

BTW LTREES

Re: your # 3 What is your " indirect " water heating source which will save money during the summer ?

:greenchainsaw:

 

[LTREES]

The indirect water heater is a tank that the house loop is conected to. The dom water goes through a coil inside the tank. In the summer the tank can hold the hot water for a long time. This should save u at least 1/2 of your oil. I think the one I bought is the crown ms-40.

 

[woodfurnace]

Bad idea

I'm not sure why dealers are telling you to use a heat exchanger for the hot water tank. You are just going to pump water into the hot water tank through the drain valve at the bottom of the tank and out the pressure valve at the top. No heat exchanger is needed.

If you do this you will be drinking the water out of the Shaver. There are water tanks you can run like this but they have an "exchanger" built imto them. On a tank like you describe there is no sealed exchanger, so the same water you heat with will be introduced into the drinking water. BAD IDEA.

 

[ghitch75]

2 lines to the house is all you need....tee's and zone valve's so you get max heat to both appliances......dealer just wantin' to sell you more pipe...

 

[mtfallsmikey]

PEX mfr's Kitec/Rehau going under...I personally would use an HX connecting to any existing boiler...one thing to remember, is that an existing gas/oil boiler, when heated, will cause draft to flow thru the boiler and out the smokepipe/chimney...just like an open fireplace does. I used Zurn PEX/Sharkbite fittings, no probs so far. I feel it is a MUST to use a mixing valve for domestic HW...soon, we will be sharing stories about severe scalding accidents by those who decided against using one.

:deadhorse:

 

[Windwalker7]

I'm not sure why dealers are telling you to use a heat exchanger for the hot water tank. You are just going to pump water into the hot water tank through the drain valve at the bottom of the tank and out the pressure valve at the top. No heat exchanger is needed.

If you do this you will be drinking the water out of the Shaver. There are water tanks you can run like this but they have an "exchanger" built imto them. On a tank like you describe there is no sealed exchanger, so the same water you heat with will be introduced into the drinking water. BAD IDEA.

No you are not drinking water from out of the furnace. The furnace has a copper coil inside it that water circulates in to pick up the heat ,from the outdoor furnace. Then gets fed back into the elect. hot water tank.

Check oout a picture in this thread to understand better

It is the next to last post on page one. It shows the coil inside the tank

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=81190

 

[Windwalker7]

Mine is up and running and works great. And no the dealer does not just want to sell extra pipe.


My dealer doesn't even sell pipe.

Bought my pipe from ebay.


This system works great. No need to buy an expensive HX. Its built right in on the Shaver.

 

[Windwalker7]

PEX mfr's Kitec/Rehau going under...I personally would use an HX connecting to any existing boiler...one thing to remember, is that an existing gas/oil boiler, when heated, will cause draft to flow thru the boiler and out the smokepipe/chimney...just like an open fireplace does. I used Zurn PEX/Sharkbite fittings, no probs so far. I feel it is a MUST to use a mixing valve for domestic HW...soon, we will be sharing stories about severe scalding accidents by those who decided against using one.

:deadhorse:

With the Shaver set up, the DHW has it's own thermostat. I can set the water in the elect. hot water to any temp I want. No mixing valves, no scalding.

 

[ghitch75]

heat exchanger......http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...rkparms=algo=CRX&its=S%2BI&itu=UCI%2BSI&otn=2

i'm sure you spent more than 62 buc's on extra pipe...

 

[Windwalker7]

$42 actually

 

[ghitch75]

With the Shaver set up, the DHW has it's own thermostat. I can set the water in the elect. hot water to any temp I want. No mixing valves, no scalding.

explain please?

i found it on there site....you still have water temp at what ever the boiler it set at...scalding can still take place

 

[Windwalker7]

If you look through here, you will see a diagram that shows you how to hook up the DHW

http://www.nextlevelsolutionz.com/outdoor-wood-furnace-install.htm

 

[Windwalker7]

No, no, no......The thermostat that you put onto the elect. hot water tank kicks on the pump when the temp falls below where you have it set and kicks the pump off when temp reaches that setting.

When I first hooked mine up, the wife wanted the water hotter. I had to keep upping the temp to get the water where she wanted it.

 

[ghitch75]

so you have 2 pumps?