Silver Maple with split (?) and damage from ants

[marinegrunt]

We have a silver maple that has been nailed by ants. I know it's not all caused from ants but they dug where there's a split or whatever it's called. There's definitely damage running from the bottom up to where the big branches shoot out. Water sits up top so I'm sure that doesn't help. What worries me is it looks like 1/3 of the tree could split right off and it would land on the house. It's planted about 25' off the corner of the house. I'm not attached to the tree and cutting it down would allow more sun in our backyard.

We moved in a year and a half ago. I've sprayed to kill the ants but they come back which it's no big deal spraying for them. I don't like the tree enough to where I'd spend money on injections or whatever else to save it. I just don't want it falling on the house. I know it's hard to tell from pictures but what are your thoughts? The last picture is a close up of the bottom slit. I can post more if it'll help.

Thanks!

 

[ATH]

Nothing in those pics really stands out as concerning.

That fork is a nice wide open angle...those are MUCH stronger than a tight V-shaped fork.

Those patches where the bark was damaged many years ago have a lot of callous tissue and not a lot of decaying wood from what i can tell. Probe that exposed wood. is it hard or soft. If soft, how far in can you probe (you can even use a flat head screwdriver)?

 

[marinegrunt]

Thanks for the reply ATH. I did do a little digging and probing a little bit ago. A lot of the bark in the split just raked right off like it wasn't attached. I can really see into the split now. I can see a bunch of fine sawdust. I was also able to stick a 12" screwdriver all the way in and can tell it really opens up inside. I need to get a ladder tomorrow and check but I reached up to the fork using the screwdriver and was able to jab it into rotted wood I think about 4"-5". I'll know more tomorrow.

If for some reason it does split it'll be the left side and it's a direct hit on our bedroom and main bath. Good chance it'll take out our heat pump too.

I'll take an updated picture tomorrow since I removed some dead bark. I actually scraped out a little good bark to see better. I know I shouldn't of but wanted to really make sure I could see what's going on. I also noticed a lot more big black ants all over it even though I sprayed the other day. I think they're so deep in there I'm not able to get them all. I think it's much worse than the original pictures show but I only know a tree when it's going to be split into a piece of firewood.

Thanks again.

 

[ATH]

Getting rid of the ants: sevin powder. Put it where they have to walk through it to get home. They'll bring it in with them - they are kinda infamous for not wiping their feet at the door.

Where did you go into the tree 12" deep? That is certainly starting to sound more concerning.

Probably worth getting somebody well-qualified to look at it. Expect to pay for an assessment - I'm not talking about quotes for removal yet. I recommend at least a Certified Arborist. Even better one with the Tree Risk Assessment Qualification. Not that others can't or won't do a good job...but unless you know who to call....you've gotta start somewhere so why not with a professional who has sought out credentials? Training matters. There are a lot of guys who have been doing tree removals for a long time who haven't seen a small hollow spot that didn't mean "immediate danger for failure, have to remove it ASAP".

Just saw a story about that earlier this week. Key line:
"....we assessed the factors that influenced prescribed mitigation measures. Results indicate that professionals with training and industry credentials had lower risk ratings and were less likely to prescribe more active mitigation measures like tree removal."

 

[Jason Douglas]

Yeah I would say mitigation over removal here although carpenter ants indicate wood decay as well.

Assessment is necessary and decay diahnosis and prognosis is just as important. A support system will likely be needed and perhaps some crown reduction pruning.

 

[marinegrunt]

What a great and informative reply! Thank you.

I'll definitely pick up some sevin dust if I decide to keep it. I'm half tempted to just start dropping it today. As close as our house is to the ravine with tall tree line in the back it would allow more sun if that maple was gone. I just can't decide though.

Our neighbor had a 15 year old Ash. Beautifully shaped tree. Last year his tree split off in one of the fork areas. He even had the tree inspected and injected every year to prevent the ash borer. Looking at it you never would've thought it would sustain damage. The wind during that storm wasn't even that bad. I can see who he used for his arborist and then try and find reviews.

The screwdriver in the picture below is 9" but I was able shove a 13" stick in there. I can feel rot in the back so could probably go even further. I think it kind of opens up in there.

If I'm going to cut it down I'd like to soon. As you can see I'm going to reseed our yard this fall after doing some leveling. I'd assume not having to repair a spot if I don't have to but it's no big deal. I just don't want to trample new seedlings. I also have landscaping to finish up. Always too many projects going on.

There was a little rot in the fork . The screwdriver went down about 5" but I don't know if that is just the shape of the fork and had dirt and debris in it. It's a perfect place to pool water though. It's hard to tell from the picture of the whole tree but that left side, which would be the side to split, would be a direct hit of the house.

I guess if I want to keep it I really need to call an arborist as you recommended.

Thank you for the outstanding help!

 

[marinegrunt]

Thanks for the reply Jason. I don't know if I like the tree enough to have to mess with having to have the tree monitored every year. We have some really nice towering Oak and Hickory trees at the edge of the ravine just 30' feet away that provide plenty of shade. Geez, it almost sounds like I'm looking for an excuse to drop it.

When you say support system does that mean just support from an arborist to recommend ways to keep it healthy or an actual physical support system such as cables to keep it from splitting?

Thanks

 

[ATH]

.....
Our neighbor had a 15 year old Ash. Beautifully shaped tree. Last year his tree split off in one of the fork areas. He even had the tree inspected and injected every year to prevent the ash borer. Looking at it you never would've thought it would sustain damage. The wind during that storm wasn't even that bad. I can see who he used for his arborist and then try and find reviews.
....

I'd ask the neighbor if the arborist ever talked to them about that split. Things like that are kinda predictable. Not everybody wants to spend the money to get them addressed or sometimes it would involve taking half of the tree out to properly prune and they don't want that to happen. But if it was a 'predictable' failure and the person treating the tree didn't recognize that...

 

[marinegrunt]

Thanks ATH. I don't think the neighbor's tree even showed signs of a split. My neighbor just said it split where it forked so figured there was one. The arborist hasn't been back because it sustained enough damage to where it needs cut down. I don't even know if his arborist even looked at the tree. He might've just done the injections. I hear what you're saying though. A good arborist would probably completely look it over probably even if the homeowner was just paying for injections or he just wasn't trained enough to see it. It was such a beautiful tree too. Picture perfect shape. He planted it when he had his house built. I'm going to cut it down for him this fall. I think he keeps putting it off because he's sad to see the other half It.

With this maple I'm in the category of not wanting to throw money at it. If it was a nice Oak I wouldn't hesitate. I've never been a fan of Silver Maple and this one isn't really providing any benefits that we aren't getting from other trees close by. After more probing I can't tell how far the rot goes inside. Quite a ways for sure. About 15' up on the left side you can see where a 8" branch broke off sometime in the past. It doesn't look like it was cut. It's another place where water can collect and looks like there might be some rot there. I need to look.

I guess I need to decide on whether to have an initial visit from an arborist or just cut it down. I'm leaning towards cutting it down.

 

[Jason Douglas]

I would say if you have other nice hardwoods nearby, cutting down a silver maple with a significant split in it is probably the best way to go from a time and money standpoint.

 

[ATH]

It sounds like you have kinda already make the decision. When it comes time to decide whether a tree should come or go, I start asking some questions taht only you can answer and let them give you the guidance:
1) Would you miss the tree if it were gone?
2) What function is the tree serving? (aesthetics, shade to keep the house cooler, fruit production (I know not this one...but an example of where you can take a lot of 'ugly' and mis-shapen tree and be OK with them because they provide another benefit), etc...).
3) Even if I were able to tell you I think it is a low risk tree (not saying it is...haven't looked at it in person to make that call), would it still make you nervous - how nervous?
4) How much would it cost to get it down? (I know you said you will remove it yourself...be if it is that hollow at your point of cut, you better be ready to deal with things not going where you expect).

 

[marinegrunt]

Both of you make great points. I know a big reason people plant silver maples around here is because they grow fast.

I do have nice hardwoods nearby. Much nicer than the maple.

I won't miss the tree at all. Due to the tall hardwoods at the edge of the ravine 15' away from the maple, and as close as our house is to the ravine (35'), we get plenty of morning shade. It could actually really help the backyard cutting it down. The grass would come in better due to more sun. The back of the house faces the east. With the maple being at the edge of the house it completely shades the backyard once the sun gets over the tree line by the ravine. I think it would be nice to get some sun on the back patio. We have a walkout basement so the house shades the back late in the afternoon. Im guessing we'd go from no sun to maybe 4-5 hours. It would help dry things out quicker after rains.

It would make me a little nervous if I left it knowing the shape it's in. If it did split it's not like if would completely crush the house but it would cause considerable damage. We also seem to get some wicked winds. We live on a cul de sac and it's kind of on a point on a lake. Not a huge lake but 96 acres. The neighbors across the street have a bunch of trees and a big ravine too. You would think the trees would block the wind but the layout makes it worse for some reason.

I definitely talked myself into taking it down.

That's a good point on the trunk being hollow so the tree could go where it wants even with a good cut. I think I'll strap each branch of the fork and use a come along off a tree in the distance. I'll cut each one individually. I think that's the safest bet for me being that it's close to the house. I've done others close to the house and have done the same thing. I then cut to hinge it just enough to where I can walk over to the come along and bring it the rest of the way down. It's a little more work but seems to work well.

Thanks for helping through this and helping me decide. It can be a tough decision because it takes so long for trees to grow to massive size. I have the same decision to make in a Heritage River Birch. It's near the road by the power lines and it recently got butchered by the power company. It's in a bad spot but a nice looking tree. No shade benefits or anything tho. I cut down over 20 half dead pine trees last year. I need to plant a couple trees out front and the birch makes it difficult to place one of the two I'd like to plant.

I'll post pictures of the maple trunk once I get it cut down so you can see how bad it actually is.

Thanks again!

 

[marinegrunt]

I got around to cutting the tree down today. I figured I'd post some pictures so you can see what I was dealing with and if I made the right call. Either way, I'm glad it's gone because we now get sun in our backyard!

This is the stump about 2' off the ground. I've heard that trees can be hollow but this one looks excessive. You can see the ant damage. We've been here a year and I don't think previous owners ever tried to get rid of them. The tape measure is for reference of rot.


This cut is right below the fork.

 

[marinegrunt]

This is the top of the stump about 2' off the ground. I was worried more about it splitting to the left of the crack. It seemed logical that it was the worse part. You can tell from the picture that the right was actually worse. All of the dark colored wood just chips out it's so rotted.

This is a picture of a spot I was worried about on the forked branch leaning towards the house because a branch had broke off years ago. It's about 6' up from the fork.



We're off to Kentucky in the morning to visit my in-laws. I'm anxious to see the very bottom of the stump at ground level. I'll post that picture when we get back next week and I get it cut.

I had fun with this tree. I finally used my climbers for the first serious time to shackle a strap about 40' up. I've been practicing for awhile now. Don't laugh at only 40'. I felt great afterwards....haha. No more trying to throw a hammer with a rope tied to it to pull my strap around trees.

 

[Jason Douglas]

The shell thickness was plenty good for strength as far as shear fracture is concerned but that fork could have failed if wind and load was sufficient and the tree was cabled.

In any event, you're happier tjat it's gone so it's all good man.

 

[marinegrunt]

Here's one more. This is the fork. All 3 had rot. The worst one was not leaning towards the house but the one leaning towards the house did have a decent amount. It was full of ants even though there were thousands of dead ones from the times I sprayed.

 

[marinegrunt]

Jason.... I never would've thought it would of been strong enough. That shows what I know and is absolutely nothing. I guess being a cylinder probably has a lot to do with it? I guess it's kind of like looking at how much weight a plastic culvert can handle which is an awful lot for very thin plastic.

I just wish silver maple was better firewood. I'll use it for some quick heat when the wife says she's going to turn the furnace on. She has yet to catch on that I always flip the breaker when she says that or that it's the only time we have "furnace issues".

 

[Jason Douglas]

Yeah I wrote that before seeing some more pics, on patch of decay is pretty close to the surface and theres a large section missing sap wood as well. Turns out that was probably a pretty high risk tree

 

[buzz sawyer]

I'm not surprised at the amount of rot and you won't regret taking it down - before it got any bigger.

 

[ATH]

The strength in any cylinder is in the walls. There was a lot of wood in most of those walls. The pics in your second batch of pictures doesn't have a lot of wood in the walls. Some risk of failure, but not too terrible...today. However, the rot would have continued to progress and made removal more difficult in the future. To me, that is the better reason to have removed it today. Well, that and the fact you said you wanted it gone.