So I pruned an American Elm in 2014.. (Dutch Elm Disease)

[no tree to big]

Not that this will help your case much but there was a situation where we trimmed 3 perfectly healthy American elms in the dead of winter I believe it was January with snow on the ground about 15 degrees out, no better time trim an elm right? Well they barely leafed out in the spring... no other elm in the entire neighborhood, did our trimming kill the tree? No did our trimming allow DED to get to the tree easier? Perhaps Was the tree gonna die anyway? Maybe.

The mentality that every elm is eventually going to die is totally bogus. We have worked in a town where at one point every tree in the 50's was an American elm so it's now 60 years later and yes many are gone but many are still there. So is an extra 20 30 40 or 50 years of tree life considered "eventually"?

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[Jed1124]

I've often wondered about winter pruning of Elms. Just because you prune in January and the beetle isn't active then, you still have pruning cuts that are not compartmentalized in Summer.
Personally I don't like pruning Elms that I'm not treating with injections of propoconizol. If the client doesn't want to pay for the injection let someone else kill their tree.

 

[Pelorus]

Bark beetles + fungi cause a pruned tree to succumb rather than an unpruned one that is immediately adjacent to it? Or both of em done for? Do we have a winner here if tree B only lives a year longer than tree A? And tree A that got pruned attracted 5500 beetles, whereas tree B only 1280?

 

[ATH]

Not that this will help your case much but there was a situation where we trimmed 3 perfectly healthy American elms in the dead of winter I believe it was January with snow on the ground about 15 degrees out, no better time trim an elm right? Well they barely leafed out in the spring... no other elm in the entire neighborhood, did our trimming kill the tree? No did our trimming allow DED to get to the tree easier? Perhaps Was the tree gonna die anyway? Maybe.
........
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No...That is not how the disease cycle works. IF it died from DED, you didn't do that with a January pruning where it didn't leaf out the following spring.

 

[ATH]

I've often wondered about winter pruning of Elms. Just because you prune in January and the beetle isn't active then, you still have pruning cuts that are not compartmentalized in Summer.
Personally I don't like pruning Elms that I'm not treating with injections of propoconizol. If the client doesn't want to pay for the injection let someone else kill their tree.

The difference between a summer-pruned tree and every other Elm tree out there is that the pruning wounds are releasing volatiles for just a short period of time. Those compounds are attractive to elm bark beetles. When you prune while those bugs aren't flying, by the time they are out, the "smell" of the damaged tree is no longer there for them to find the tree. At that point, they may still find the pruned tree...but they would have been just as likely to find that tree had it not been pruned. It is not the compartmentalization that "hides" the wound...it is that the tree is no longer releasing the volatiles from the wound. And beetles do not "need" volatiles...that just makes the tree scream to the bugs 'I'm injured...come finish me off'. It just looks a lot worse for the arborist if the beetles find the tree a few months after the pruning. If you never touch it and the bugs find the same tree, "it is what it is" and there is nobody to blame.

 

[ATH]

Bark beetles + fungi cause a pruned tree to succumb rather than an unpruned one that is immediately adjacent to it? Or both of em done for? Do we have a winner here if tree B only lives a year longer than tree A? And tree A that got pruned attracted 5500 beetles, whereas tree B only 1280?

Immediate adjacency means root grafting is probable...so it could be 0 bugs find the second one (unlikely) and it will still probably succumb if the first isn't immediately removed.

 

[Jason Douglas]

There is also some speculation and some evidence that many pathogens can survive inside a tree for years as an endophyte, causing no symptoms and perhaps no harm. A stress event, such as drought, poor draining, and even severe pruning can "release" the endophyte to become a vascular wilt or decay organism depending on species. Newer area of research and it's something I've only begun to study.

Possible for DED? Who knows.

 

[squad143]

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this one.
So..... we know you pruned in August. What about the rest of ATH's questions?
I think your defence of "The tree was healthy, but was not maintained & was going to get DED anyways" is a weak defence.
I doubt the homeowner removed the tree and ground the stump himself. Most likely another tree company removed it. What are they saying? Are they on his side, giving evidence that you are to blame?
Personally, if it was me. If the tree owner is still willing to take your client's $3250 and your $1,130 and all you have to do is dig a hole, I'd rent a small excavator and start digging.
Get it in writing first though.

 

[DR. P. Proteus]

I blame the Dutch.

And you probably did the guy a favor. There are a couple big elms around here... well there was... they don't seem to want to stay up once they get there. Always ripping out codoms.

 

[SlickDamian]

When did you prune it? (Month?)

Did you inform your client of the risk? (Did you know the risk?)

Did your client have the neihbor's permission to prune the tree?

Did you treat the pruning wounds?

Did you offer preventative injections?

Are there local ordinances regarding care of trees and did you follow those to a letter?

Could start to sound scary. BUT:

How have they determined that the fatality was a direct relationship to your pruning?

Perhaps a step back from that one: How did they determine it was DED that killed the tree....Do they have lab samples to prove it? Was it 100% DEd or did Armillaria play a role (that is a 'trick' question to see if their expert is paying attention if you were to autopsy a DED tree, Armillaria would almost always be rhe ultimate COD.). Could it have been elm yellows?

Was there any flagging in 2014? (Depending on when you pruned, this could be a big deal). Do they have pictures of that?

Are there other DED killed trees in the surrounding area that were not pruned?

Were there beetle galleries under portions of bark not near your pruning cuts?

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I was a freshman in the industry as my dad was. I guess we were so called "Tree trimmers".
So we did not know of the risk. Nor we were certain about its specie. So no treatment was done and there was no offer for preventative injection. I should say I knew nothing about it.

The client did not have any permission (later I found out). The treeowner was away for vacay. Work was performed because the tip of limbs were scratching on his roof.
*We are technically allowed to prune back branches that's overhanging from neighbour's tree (without damaging the tree). Not a set bylaw, but that's how it usually works here. The city calls it "Civil matter"

Removal/ Stumping was done by other Tree company and the arborist wrote them a letter saying that "From my years of expertise, the predominant cause of death is DED."
The tree owner decided that my client is responsible for the death of tree because his arborist told the tree owner about pruning techniques and the fact that we shouldn't have pruned the tree during growing season.

No lab results were there. I'm guessing it was obvious from the beetle marks under bark

From what I recall, the tree was fine at the time of pruning (August 2014).

 

[SlickDamian]

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this one.
So..... we know you pruned in August. What about the rest of ATH's questions?
I think your defence of "The tree was healthy, but was not maintained & was going to get DED anyways" is a weak defence.
I doubt the homeowner removed the tree and ground the stump himself. Most likely another tree company removed it. What are they saying? Are they on his side, giving evidence that you are to blame?
Personally, if it was me. If the tree owner is still willing to take your client's $3250 and your $1,130 and all you have to do is dig a hole, I'd rent a small excavator and start digging.
Get it in writing first though.

The tree owner's arborist wasn't taking side. He wrote the owner a note saying that himself is an experienced expert, and the predominant cause of death is DED.
There's no access for an excavator due to limited access. 8' fence has to be removed to bring in the excavator or It has to be hand dug.

 

[Jakers]

id be taking out 8ft of fence or hand digging then.... youre not done yet?

in all seriousness, really crappy situation. i have trimmed a few that died because of it. now i always make sure to warn of the potential outcome of trimming elms. if not necessary for safety or protection of a structure from damage i usually urge them to leave it alone. from day one ive always been overly cautious of shared trees or property line issues. I have lost many jobs because i demand to meet with all affected homeowners and make them sign a contract agreeing to the work. some people think im crazy or say "oh i know them and theyre alright with it." "we are good neigbors.".... still gotta meet and sign. that goes for any tree work involving property lines. my years in underground utility installation showed me just how ugly people can be about one tire track in their lawn so i do everything possible to cover my own business butt.

 

[802climber]

Whatever you end up deciding to do, get it in writing!

I am failing to see how the contractor is automatically responsible here. Tree decline is often caused by many variables, many of which are likely out of your control as the tree is not even owned by your client. I don't see how you are responsible for assessing and managing all of these variables free of charge just to be able to complete a simple pruning job.

Might want to double check your local/state laws regarding this kind of situation. Find written ordinances and legal precedents if possible as tree laws can often be pretty vague. As an example, here in VT the law is not tree-friendly. If the neighbor's tree is encroaching across the property line, the property owner has the right to prune branches/roots back to the property line regardless of impact on the tree. Also you should consider adding some language to your service contract that would help protect you from this type of liability in the future. And getting tree owners written permission never hurts. It sounds like your client specified and authorized the work to be done here and you just performed the work. Is there a specific local ordinance saying the contractor is responsible in this situation? Because IMO it is highly debatable. If that other elm tree gets DED from root grafting and dies, is that also your fault? Where does your liability end? (This is not legal advice or anything just my 2 cents.................)

 

[jasper nl]

Olready removed then thee can say eferything whatch it

 

[jasper nl]

I think it was already il wenn you worked on it 2 years isnt a long time