How long of a bar did he use to fall this one? Does the scaler dock you for stuff like that?
Some sawing, logging and skidding pics and videos ......
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How long of a bar did he use to fall this one? Does the scaler dock you for stuff like that?
Zombiechopper
Addicted to ArboristSite
yeah, but if he'd cut it PNW long bar style he'd have left 4 ft of that log on the stump to rot. So this way is probably ok LOL!
Why on earth would that be??
Zombiechopper
Addicted to ArboristSite
I dunno man, why do you guys cut em so high out west? Very good question you ask there young lad
I think its personal preference, I would not profile it as a west coast thing though.. i do know that in tall timber where there is alot of tension on the stump, going up till you have uniform straight fiber makes for a much stronger hinge.
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
ya know what Sam? I spent all day bouncing around rutted hay field in a Case 1070 with a totally rotted out seat so the first thing caught my eye is just how perty that blue easy chair in your skidder looks
LOL, it is quite comfy.
Sam
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
He is using a 28" bar. If it was a veneer/grade log the scaler would probably want to see the right side trimmed up (if that is what you are talking about), but this log is going for mat logs so they don't dock for much of anything other than not being straight and big, on that tree we got two 20'ers and a 10'er.
I think you can see from the butt, he gutted 28" of it from one side and then got the rest from the other side. Bert cuts a little different than I do, not saying that is good or bad, but he can get the wood on the ground pretty quick, and do it about as safe as it can be expected. In this type of timber hes been doing about 60-80+ trees, and he isn't sweating to do it. The thing that sucks about this job is the way it was marked. You can't get a pattern and it was all marked on one side of the trees, so you have to walk around every tree and try to find the paint. A lot of our jobs are just cut 20" and bigger at breast heighth. Whoever marked this job was drinking, I think, because I don't see how a sober person would have done the things they are doing. Tomorrow morning the timber buyer and property owner and me are going to re-walk this timber and explain some things and get more trees marked, which means we are going to have to back track some, but it will be worth it because we are talking about a lot of 30"+ trees that got left, which for bottom ground that floods all the time, that is just dumb.
Later,
Sam
Okay...that makes sense. Lots of difference between your area and ours. If I sent one in like that I'd probably hear about it before it ever went on the truck.
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
For the record, what exactly is wrong with the butt and stump on that cut. I was thinking it was that the butt wasn't trimmed up completely smooth, but it seems we are speaking of a less quality of wood in the stump. If that is the case, it is different here, than in softwood land, because like on veneer white oak and walnut, it is common to flush cut the stump to the ground, like in my earlier photos on this thread, and even get a shovel or skid steer and dig out the stump slightly to cut them below ground level. Now the stump on the tree in question, to me is great. We didn't leave a lot of wood on the stump, I could mark out two nice 20' mat logs and one 10' pallet log before the branches at the top, and my skidder can drive over that stump and/or swing trees over it without any problems.
Around here if you cut stumps at waist heighth, we call that farmer cutting, because they are too lazy to bend over, LOL.
As to going farther up the tree to find strength in the hinge, since neither of us cut large hinges, it is strong enough at ground level, because we our hinge is in the outer wood, which obviously isn't as rotten or problematic as the wood more toward the center, and we can get more large diameter footage out of a tree this way, without being anymore dangerous.
My opinion, or that is how we do it,
Sam
Around here if you cut stumps at waist heighth, we call that farmer cutting, because they are too lazy to bend over, LOL.
As to going farther up the tree to find strength in the hinge, since neither of us cut large hinges, it is strong enough at ground level, because we our hinge is in the outer wood, which obviously isn't as rotten or problematic as the wood more toward the center, and we can get more large diameter footage out of a tree this way, without being anymore dangerous.
My opinion, or that is how we do it,
Sam
We don't always cut them high. Using a Humboldt face might leave a little higher stump than some but if you high-stump too many you'll hear about it from the bullbuck. Real soon, too. We cut for scale and leaving wood on the stump is a waste.
The only time I intentionally high-stump is to avoid rot, or for better directional control, or on very very steep ground. On cow face ground I might leave a few scattered here and there so that when I buck and a forty footer breaks loose it won't roll clear down into the next county and piss off the Cat skinner. Cat skinners are usually pissed off anyway. Why add to it?
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Easy there, big guy. I wasn't being critical. If I was being critical you'd know it. I was just curious about the difference in the way you guys do things from the way things are out here. I try not to judge everybody's operation from a Left Coast standpoint. If things work for you then keep doing them.
The stump? I don't care about the stump. I was just curious about the uneven log end. You don't see that much out here, mostly because of the longer bars, and I was reminded yet again of the different ways that we do things.
Leaving a butt like that would have earned me the comment from the bullbuck "What did you do on that one...just stand back and throw the saw at it?"
Like I said...if it works for you and everybody is happy with the results just keep on it.
Slamm
Addicted to ArboristSite
Easy there, big guy. I wasn't being critical. If I was being critical you'd know it. I was just curious about the difference in the way you guys do things from the way things are out here. I try not to judge everybody's operation from a Left Coast standpoint. If things work for you then keep doing them.
The stump? I don't care about the stump. I was just curious about the uneven log end. You don't see that much out here, mostly because of the longer bars, and I was reminded yet again of the different ways that we do things.
Leaving a butt like that would have earned me the comment from the bullbuck "What did you do on that one...just stand back and throw the saw at it?"
Like I said...if it works for you and everybody is happy with the results just keep on it.
No, I literally meant, "for the record", as in I wanted to be sure what you were talking about, no offense taken or meant toward you either, I was just curious.
Yeah, the butt has some issues on the right side, but as long as there isn't any rot in the butt, I have not heard of someone scaling back a log for an uneven cut butt. Like I said, if it was a good grade log or veneer, it would have either been trimmed up right there or at the landing before the buyer comes to look at it. When I/we mark the lengths for bucking up, we obviously go on the shorter side of the butt.
All it good, just different,
Sam
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
I cut like the Swedes one time. . . I had a big old spruce on my place. They tend to have a big tapered bole like your hardwoods. I had the 038 w/ a 20" bar, and that tree wasn't gonna fall w/o getting stuck from both sides.
So I tried the box cut. . . I cut the "cheeks" off the butt-swell, put in a smaller face and went to bore cutting the tree. If fell down just like any other tree, with any other face.
And, like you say, the stump was right at ground level.
I haven't done it since, but it's nice to have in the bag-o-tricks.
As far as high stumps in these parts, 12" is max in production. On grade it's 12" all the way around, and on slope it's 12" from high side. Long stumps are allowed to deck on fill slope, or (like Bob said) to keep trees from running to Kansas.
If you don't watch your P's & Q's though, the forester will eat your lunch.
Winter snow won't even be a good enough excuse, as they'd tell ya to buy a shovel and get to digging.
Here's the rules of stumps, where I work. 12 inches is the maximum height, measured from the uphill side.
But there are exceptions, which I've posted before and will now do again. I've still got coffee to drink.
High stumps are OK when:
You are building a road. They are easier to push out of the road when high.
You are on steep as a cow's face ground, clearcutting. The stumps might stop the trees from rolling to the bottom of the unit. If not, they might at least slow it down.
You need to deck logs on the steep sides of roads. The stumps can be left high to hold the logs.
You are cutting a snag. Safety trumps everything else.
You need to cut higher because the tree is forked near the bottom. Mind you, you are supposed to then cut the stump off to the acceptable height.
You need a guyline or tailhold. You need room to notch those stumps to place the straps in. Gots to notch them to keep the rigging from slipping off.
I think I've forgotten a few other cases. Feel free to chime in.
Here's a hooktender, high stumping the tree because he's going to rig it up as a tailhold. The saw used, like all rigging crew saws, was said to have "a bent bar.":greenchainsaw:
Some rigging. This area has loose, pumice for soils. These guys took pride in the fact that no tail trees went over during the yarding. The tail tree gets so much shaking that it will loosen up over time.
But there are exceptions, which I've posted before and will now do again. I've still got coffee to drink.
High stumps are OK when:
You are building a road. They are easier to push out of the road when high.
You are on steep as a cow's face ground, clearcutting. The stumps might stop the trees from rolling to the bottom of the unit. If not, they might at least slow it down.
You need to deck logs on the steep sides of roads. The stumps can be left high to hold the logs.
You are cutting a snag. Safety trumps everything else.
You need to cut higher because the tree is forked near the bottom. Mind you, you are supposed to then cut the stump off to the acceptable height.
You need a guyline or tailhold. You need room to notch those stumps to place the straps in. Gots to notch them to keep the rigging from slipping off.
I think I've forgotten a few other cases. Feel free to chime in.
Here's a hooktender, high stumping the tree because he's going to rig it up as a tailhold. The saw used, like all rigging crew saws, was said to have "a bent bar.":greenchainsaw:
Some rigging. This area has loose, pumice for soils. These guys took pride in the fact that no tail trees went over during the yarding. The tail tree gets so much shaking that it will loosen up over time.
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
I think you covered a good portion of the acceptable reasons for high stumps.
Another might be a lift spar, and you need a couple high stumps next to it to guy to.
Or if you're yarder is a lattice boom crane like the Linkbelt 98 we used, you have to guy the tower off to a stump behind you (high stump). . . You put a Skookum block on the stump, and run the cable thru it. Both ends of the cable are attached to the boom, and this allows you to pull on the stump during a turn, and not entirely on the boom -- but you don't lose your ability to swing. Nobody like a broken yarder boom, or watching the yarder get yanked over the hill.
Here's another, lesser known, reason. . . A high stump can be used as a pivot for a cat on real steep ground. Pin your lower track against the stump and get to turning.
Another might be a lift spar, and you need a couple high stumps next to it to guy to.
Or if you're yarder is a lattice boom crane like the Linkbelt 98 we used, you have to guy the tower off to a stump behind you (high stump). . . You put a Skookum block on the stump, and run the cable thru it. Both ends of the cable are attached to the boom, and this allows you to pull on the stump during a turn, and not entirely on the boom -- but you don't lose your ability to swing. Nobody like a broken yarder boom, or watching the yarder get yanked over the hill.
Here's another, lesser known, reason. . . A high stump can be used as a pivot for a cat on real steep ground. Pin your lower track against the stump and get to turning.
High stumps can make good platforms for us short Foresters to stand on and
orate. Not too tall though. I carry a step stool in my pickup but sure don't want to pack it down into the brush. Or up.
By the way. In the ancient days, when contracts were thicker, like the trees, the stump height requirement was:
12 inches or 1/3 the tree diameter, which ever is greater.
That gave more working room to have on the old monster trees.
orate. Not too tall though. I carry a step stool in my pickup but sure don't want to pack it down into the brush. Or up.
By the way. In the ancient days, when contracts were thicker, like the trees, the stump height requirement was:
12 inches or 1/3 the tree diameter, which ever is greater.
That gave more working room to have on the old monster trees.
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palogger
ArboristSite Operative
Another reason for a high stump is as a guide around a reserve or leave tree, this is if your skidding with a skidder or dozer
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