Spliced Eye

[jmack]

screwed

One of the changes in the 2006 version of the ANSI Z133...AMERICAN National Standards Institute...will be that all body support rope terminations will be cinch-type connections. This means that loops won't be allowed on biners or captured eyes.

There are some ropes that a tight eye doesn't seem to work well on. The Velocity family doesn't take a tight eye without hemorrhaging the core through the sheath.

The solution for this, and any other large eye, is to seize or whip the eye down to an acceptable size to keep the biner from sliding around.

Using spliced eyes makes for a nice tidy climbing setup. Less bulk and it eliminates a knot that has to be tied, dressed and set everytime it's used.

There are instructions for making one kind of seizing here:

http://www.sailingservices.com/running_rig/splicing/stasetx_pcru_eye_spl.htm

so the ropes i just ordered with 5inch eyes are gonna be illegal?

 

[tophopper]

Sounds like it to me.


Maybe they'll have a grace period

 

[jmack]

thanks

Using a girth hitch will make them legal.

very cool, thankyou gentleman got the 7/16 husky prolite coming ... and custom spliced with a 5in eye

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The more the girth forces the eye to tourque/ twists hard; the more compormised the strength IMLHO; also the easier for krab to move around, especially unloaded.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

jmack,

I wrote this:

There are some ropes that a tight eye doesn't seem to work well on. The Velocity family doesn't take a tight eye without hemorrhaging the core through the sheath.

The solution for this, and any other large eye, is to seize or whip the eye down to an acceptable size to keep the biner from sliding around.
******

A girth hitch or seizing will make a tight eye. Corner traps can sometimes keep the rope in the end of the biner.

There won't be any grace period. Like poker, what's laid is played.

 

[046]

call me untrusting, but I don't like spliced eyes.

much rather trust what I tied my self, for I know it was done right. prefer a triple fisherman, possibly the most secure bend known.

seems this already meets new ansi rules...

 

[clearance]

call me untrusting, but I don't like spliced eyes.

much rather trust what I tied my self, for I know it was done right. prefer a triple fisherman, possibly the most secure bend known.

Carefull 046, you are not toeing the line, me too, I like the hand tied method, it works well. I guess it you have the non-pc eye rope you could just get out the old Buck knife and cut the eye off, remember how to tie?

 

[jmack]

thankyou

jmack,

I wrote this:

There are some ropes that a tight eye doesn't seem to work well on. The Velocity family doesn't take a tight eye without hemorrhaging the core through the sheath.

The solution for this, and any other large eye, is to seize or whip the eye down to an acceptable size to keep the biner from sliding around.
******

A girth hitch or seizing will make a tight eye. Corner traps can sometimes keep the rope in the end of the biner.

There won't be any grace period. Like poker, what's laid is played.

tom thanks for the clarification, i'm liking the girth hitch

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Carefull 046, you are not toeing the line, me too, I like the hand tied method, it works well. I guess it you have the non-pc eye rope you could just get out the old Buck knife and cut the eye off, remember how to tie?

Nothing PC, it has to do with changesin :"One of the changes in the 2006 version of the ANSI Z133...AMERICAN National Standards Institute..."

Careful reading of what is posted at the beginning of most threads will give you an education.

What happens in BC isn't governed by ANSI. oh, do you realize that it stands for:

AMERICAN National Standards Institute
AMERICAN National Standards Institute
AMERICAN National Standards Institute

Just having some funs with my cousin in BC

 

[spin101]

So running a biner through my eye and looping it around a crotch and latching the biner back to the rope itself creating a choker effect would be safe for a single climbing line?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Spin,

Doing that will, most times, load the biner wrong. Biners are designed to have the load supported by the ends. Choking a biner will make it bend and have sideloads on the gate and spine. You could get buy with this for a long time but sooner or later it will damage the biner...do you want to climb on a bent biner?

A better solution is to tie some kind of eye hitch and choke that against the tree. A running bowline with a back up is preferred by some climbers. A butterfly knot works well too. Make sure that what ever you use, leave a LONG tail. this helps to reduce the chance of the knot/hitch rolling out and failing.

 

[046]

please note girth hitch may reduce strength by a significant percentage. debatable on how much. some say 30%

here's pull test data by black diamond

http://www.climerware.com/knot5.htm

a few good knots..
http://www.cave.org.vt.edu/knots.shtml

 

[spin101]

That makes alot more sense. Thanks alot guys.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think the visual appearance of the gate of krab is miss-leading to the eye. To me, a krab is a well moused hook. A clevis or screwlink is a real 2 leg device; a krab has a gate held by 2 pins, that are pulled perpendicular to their maximum inline strength. Therefore the thin pins are pulled at their weakest angle of support; the pins are pulled across their short axis, incurring the leverage of the longest axis against themselves (pins).

A hook or krab to me, is best visualized as a single straight rod, with eye on each end to link to. This would always maintain inline pull down the 'spine' of the device. The openness of the hook or krab; only a convention for easier and quicker loading and unloading. But, the force should always be conducted directly as possible, inline down the long axis/spine of real support, so i keep the imagery of the rod with an eye on each end, and load like that.

As you conduct a flow of force down 1 axis, you always leverage against the perpendicular or 'cross' axis. So we conduct down the long axis, so to as only leverage against the device with the lowest multiplier of the minimal/ narrowest cross axis. If we conduct down the narrowest axis (in rectangle etc.), we then leverage the largest multiplier of the longer axis against the device; causing it to fail, much, much sooner.

Also, even if we carry force down the longest axis, if we drift from inline with the long axis (towards gate or open side of hook) we also leverage against the spine, and carry more force on the open or gate side.

 

[pantheraba]

prefer a triple fisherman, possibly the most secure bend known.

seems this already meets new ansi rules...

Here is my question about what you showed...I have been experimenting with using siezing/whipping after a double or triple fisherman's knot/bend/whatever.

To me one of the desirable aspects of the fisherman is that it should tighten down on the biner so that it does not slide around like a bowline. But...if you tie/sieze/whip it you negate the tightening effect of the knot...it cannot slide anymore.

What is the key? Just have a real tight eye when you tie on the siezing?

In my experience the eye loosens up some as the knot sets.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Tie, dress and set the knot. Then climb on it for a few days. This will snug down the eye. Massage the knot a bit to work out the slack. You should then be able to seize the tails and not have the eye open up.

Or...







just use...






a 3M seizing...








electrical tape

 

[okietreedude1]

I tied a dbl fish today for the first time as an attachment knot and will say I wish I had given imput on the ansi standard.

I climb w/ a captive eye biner and after the climb, the knot was kind of hard to untie. I know after several climbs, the knot will just about be set in stone.

When its time to bust out a new rope, Im thinking of going w/ an eye. I dont really like isolating one end of the rope and not being able to switch it, but at least I wont periodically have to cut off the knot because it got to dam tight to untie.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

David,

There are other cinch-type knots that will work. DFH isn't the only one.

 

[woodchux]

I had to cut the eye off of my new life line.

Nicked it 30' from the eye, when i was pulling up the pole saw.

Oh well... now i have an excuse to buy more toys.......I mean tools.

 

[046]

Here is my question about what you showed...I have been experimenting with using siezing/whipping after a double or triple fisherman's knot/bend/whatever.

To me one of the desirable aspects of the fisherman is that it should tighten down on the biner so that it does not slide around like a bowline. But...if you tie/sieze/whip it you negate the tightening effect of the knot...it cannot slide anymore.

What is the key? Just have a real tight eye when you tie on the siezing?

In my experience the eye loosens up some as the knot sets.

whipping has no effect upon triple fisherman cinching up when tied as in pic above.

been using this setup long before ANSI Z133. above picture of knot is at end of Tom's DEDA. normally only use triple fisherman to terminate knots that will not be untied. ideal for a split-tail (pic below)

if you are using Spectra, triple fisherman is the only knot you should terminate with.

(disclaimer: please don't use internet as your only source of information to trust you life with. find an experienced instructor)

"The double fisherman's bend (or grapevine knot) is a very secure knot that can be used to bend two similar pieces of rope. It is prone to jamming with heavy loads and can be difficult to remove. With three turns on each overhand, it is called a triple fisherman's bend or barrel knot. The triple fisherman's bend is as strong as the rope and is the only bend that should be used with Spectra[SP96, p52]."

http://www.cave.org.vt.edu/knots.shtml#SECTION00011400000000000000