Spurred so many times its crazy
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Jon Denver
ArboristSite Operative
I am glad I found this forum and this toppic, I debate this with people all the time.
I always use spikes but on species like oaks I rarely kick them in, It is just not always neccessary, but I allways wear them. If you take the square area of exposed heartwood from your chainsaw to the exposed heartwood from your spikes The former would usually far outweight the latter. The only really bad thing about spikes is that they are sometimes unsightly (so hide them) or they spread disease like SOD (you should be sterilizing them and your pruning gear in beetween trees anyway). Most clients could care less and would be unwilling to pay the higher no spike price anyway in this area.
I would like to see some of the spiking naysayers climb some of the conifers out here with no spikes, how about in the rain even.
I always use spikes but on species like oaks I rarely kick them in, It is just not always neccessary, but I allways wear them. If you take the square area of exposed heartwood from your chainsaw to the exposed heartwood from your spikes The former would usually far outweight the latter. The only really bad thing about spikes is that they are sometimes unsightly (so hide them) or they spread disease like SOD (you should be sterilizing them and your pruning gear in beetween trees anyway). Most clients could care less and would be unwilling to pay the higher no spike price anyway in this area.
I would like to see some of the spiking naysayers climb some of the conifers out here with no spikes, how about in the rain even.
Worked out there in Monterey for a while. Climbed plenty of Monterey pine and cypress without gaffs. Buy a bigshot.
mattfr12
The Bulldog
learn how to tie a blakes hitch and dont prune with spikes i never worked for a company that would let you prune with spikes. do the old butt thrust up the tree.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
If you were flush cutting every branch then this statement would have work. But it does not take into account the Branch Protection Zone.
You need to study plant anatomy & pathology a wee bit more.
Where I am I can get a person to pay for the more for my service.
This also plays into the "thick bark" argument some gaffers talk about, and I touched on above. Thick bark has cork cambium, or phelogen. This is living tissues that can be infected by wounding.
I was on the crew that trimmed the Tree House redwood up near Leggit, that Gerry Berranek did a few years ago. Not one pair of gaffs was used by the 7 plus people that were in the tree at any given time for 3 days.
If you care about your clients property, then why would you want to wound it more then nessesary? I agree, pruning is wounding, which causes stress. Gaffing is further wounding that can be avoided by climbing ropes.
D Mc
ArboristSite Operative
DUDE! You're climbing oaks in California!!!! These are some of the most fun trees in the world to climb in with a rope (and the easiest). Do the trees and yourself a favor and take off your spurs! Clearance using spurs for row clearing in BC is entirely different!!
Try the rope bit, if it doesn't work...you need to find another line of work because you are not cut out to be a climber. Sorry if this sounds brutal, but its the truth.
D Mc
Jon Denver
ArboristSite Operative
I knew that would spur some controversy. Not that that was my point though.
and I did not mean to offend anyone about the big conifers bit, I just have allways used them and just about every tree company around here I see anyway use them on the big redwoods and such.
"If you were flush cutting every branch then this statement would have work. But it does not take into account the Branch Protection Zone."
I never cut into the branch collar , and on average my total cut size to spike size area are like 9 to 1.
"Try the rope bit, if it doesn't work...you need to find another line of work because you are not cut out to be a climber."
I climbed oaks w/o spikes for a while and it is fun, but I am going to work here and some of the run out canyon oaks would just be unnessisary risk with no spikes. I have been back to the same oak trees for years and it takes one season in most cases to heal, meanwhile all my chainsaw cuts are only just begining to wrap. I have been doing this full time for the better part of 15 years and I can throw my rope I just dont care to much for pullups anymore, must be all the beer.
"You need to study plant anatomy & pathology a wee bit more."
We all do. I have learned the most by doing it and I am just not convinced its worth the extra effort and homeowners money. I have been into bonsai for a while as well where we do all sorts of masochistic things like trunk chops, drastic root work, shaving down branch collars to the trunk with a drimmel, total leaf defoliation in summer, breaking tops, ripping off half the bark with pliers and all sorts of other stuff you are not supposed to do and the trees are allways fine.
Show me a tree that has started to decline or die from responsible spiking. I have not seen one yet.
Peace
and I did not mean to offend anyone about the big conifers bit, I just have allways used them and just about every tree company around here I see anyway use them on the big redwoods and such.
"If you were flush cutting every branch then this statement would have work. But it does not take into account the Branch Protection Zone."
I never cut into the branch collar , and on average my total cut size to spike size area are like 9 to 1.
"Try the rope bit, if it doesn't work...you need to find another line of work because you are not cut out to be a climber."
I climbed oaks w/o spikes for a while and it is fun, but I am going to work here and some of the run out canyon oaks would just be unnessisary risk with no spikes. I have been back to the same oak trees for years and it takes one season in most cases to heal, meanwhile all my chainsaw cuts are only just begining to wrap. I have been doing this full time for the better part of 15 years and I can throw my rope I just dont care to much for pullups anymore, must be all the beer.
"You need to study plant anatomy & pathology a wee bit more."
We all do. I have learned the most by doing it and I am just not convinced its worth the extra effort and homeowners money. I have been into bonsai for a while as well where we do all sorts of masochistic things like trunk chops, drastic root work, shaving down branch collars to the trunk with a drimmel, total leaf defoliation in summer, breaking tops, ripping off half the bark with pliers and all sorts of other stuff you are not supposed to do and the trees are allways fine.
Show me a tree that has started to decline or die from responsible spiking. I have not seen one yet.
Peace
mattfr12
The Bulldog
its not that it will die its just the appearnce of it to the homeowner isnt very good i dont use spikes to prune my own trees and have never been able to for any major tree company that i have worked for like davey or bartlett. we rarely use spikes only on removals and you still need a climbing line to get out on a limb anyways. we use the blakes hitch 5 days a week everyday and maybe spikes twice a month
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We NEVER spike our prunes. Hacks do it because it is cheaper and because they dont want to do any real work. Maybe a corporate office is better for those who spike for urban tree work. Sometimes, I wonder how I lose jobs to low bidders, I guess I just figured it out.
HACK = Uninsured, unethical, uneducated, hillbillies who give our industry a bad name. So go ahead spike your prunes just dont come work for me.
Time wasted writing this? 30 seconds
Time wasted trying to argue with the village idiot? hours.
HACK = Uninsured, unethical, uneducated, hillbillies who give our industry a bad name. So go ahead spike your prunes just dont come work for me.
Time wasted writing this? 30 seconds
Time wasted trying to argue with the village idiot? hours.
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wow, all that hatefull talk just 'cause someone wears spurs to prune. I just asked if it was as harmfull as some say. Thats all. Every few days I drive by some firs I sidelimbed beside a transmission line back in '02. They look fine, maybe I should cut them down and do an autopsy to see how bad they are.
Me-insured, ethical, educated (trade qualification for working around power, nothing needed education wise to do residential work here), from good stock, big gene pool.
Themadd-him real mad, chill buddy.
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Jon Denver
ArboristSite Operative
The way I spike you need to look very hard to see them. I guess technically to you I am a hack and that's OK. My business is all re feral now so I must be doing something right. No body really cares about spikes except all the super foo foo guys who think they deserve to put down others because they feel they need more recognition for making their job harder than it has to be. Spiking being bad is for the most part pure myth kind of like topping "ALL" trees is bad. These myths like so many others are spread from textbook to textbook and don't always have any basis in science. Its just not worth it, I will be gaffer and risk more incomming stones.
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
I decide that spurring trees is not in thier best interest, I still do it, will never stop. I agreed on this site to stop advising beginners to start climbing with spurs residentially. I advocate the use of spurs around power because of safety.
Jon, the stones will be coming, no doubt. I explained my reasons for spurs, the arguements and name calling went on and on. I do utility work, and even one of the head guys at the utility I work for lied outright, on the phone to a member on this site (Boston Bull) as well as my good friend who called him. He stated that all utility climbing here is done spurless, an outright lie, never seen it, never done it. Tom Dunlap, the esteemed arborist, was also less than honest about this topic himself, he refused on this site my suggestion to call this guy (Brian Fisher) and question him. He made it seem as if they didn't know each other, when in fact Tom had been keeping this fellow up to date on my comments on this site, Mr. Fisher told me this when I called him. He said he was going to sue me, that I was drunk, that I was bitter little man and so forth.
Thats how far some of these ISA types will go, sordid as it is. It was at great risk to my job and career for me to publicly indentify myself and call BS on this fellow, personally and on this site. I am still waiting for the proverbial knife in the back. Makes me puke, lying like that over spurring trees, I may well be an evil gaffer, but I ain't a lying cull. Anyways Jon, leave it alone, climb safe and good luck to you.
Jon Denver
ArboristSite Operative
What really blows me away is I have seen other tree crews many times out there working on trees w/o spikes and damn proud off it but they seem to have no concept of sterilizing their pruning gear beetween trees on the job site (really bad practice in this area) or stuff like taking big wood of off oaks during the rainy season.
The most unbeleivable happened a few months ago. I had a new client call to look at removing her dead oaks. She said she had a "Certified Consulting Arbourist" come out and tell her that a group of 4 oaks died from SOD and they need to go and that the little black charcoal pieces on the bark (hypoxylon, which does not come from SOD) were because the last tree crew used spikes and infected the trees with SOD. Well, wen I showed up it was hard to beleive my eyes. How could even the most unobservant not notice all the frass and dangling oak worms every where. The trees were simply defoliated by California Oak Worm. The Hypoxylon was on previouse dead wood, the arbourist did not even know that this comes in after the branch dies, not the cause of death of the branch in most cases! I told her the trees are very much alive and to leave them alone. I talked her out of it, she called me back a month later to thank me profusely as her oaks were growing new leaves.
The most militant of the non spikers around here anyway seem more concerned with their pride and ego because their job is harder and they can say "look I did that spikeless, man what a workout, that was dicey and anyone who needs spikes for that tree is a hack and the insurance companys wont give them insurance and because they wear spikes nor are they licenced" But yet from my observation their reasons are all based on rote learning and they do not really seem to really understand the big picture.
I never said spikes were good for a tree. Any time you wound the tree it is not good. However is it allways worth the extra effort or risk at times? Not usually. You can use your spikes w/o putting them in the bark you know, hook over a branch, in a small cavity, high step, use a branch when there and even do a rope toss and butt thrust on occasion.
If I look at my trees afterwards I cant even tell they were spiked, but I had them strapped to my legs the whole time.
The most unbeleivable happened a few months ago. I had a new client call to look at removing her dead oaks. She said she had a "Certified Consulting Arbourist" come out and tell her that a group of 4 oaks died from SOD and they need to go and that the little black charcoal pieces on the bark (hypoxylon, which does not come from SOD) were because the last tree crew used spikes and infected the trees with SOD. Well, wen I showed up it was hard to beleive my eyes. How could even the most unobservant not notice all the frass and dangling oak worms every where. The trees were simply defoliated by California Oak Worm. The Hypoxylon was on previouse dead wood, the arbourist did not even know that this comes in after the branch dies, not the cause of death of the branch in most cases! I told her the trees are very much alive and to leave them alone. I talked her out of it, she called me back a month later to thank me profusely as her oaks were growing new leaves.
The most militant of the non spikers around here anyway seem more concerned with their pride and ego because their job is harder and they can say "look I did that spikeless, man what a workout, that was dicey and anyone who needs spikes for that tree is a hack and the insurance companys wont give them insurance and because they wear spikes nor are they licenced" But yet from my observation their reasons are all based on rote learning and they do not really seem to really understand the big picture.
I never said spikes were good for a tree. Any time you wound the tree it is not good. However is it allways worth the extra effort or risk at times? Not usually. You can use your spikes w/o putting them in the bark you know, hook over a branch, in a small cavity, high step, use a branch when there and even do a rope toss and butt thrust on occasion.
If I look at my trees afterwards I cant even tell they were spiked, but I had them strapped to my legs the whole time.D Mc
ArboristSite Operative
Jon, This is what makes this such a controversial topic. It is like defending hunting when any idiotic can go down to a hardware store and buy a rifle, shoot his neighbor's horse and call that a HUNTING accident.
Whether you use spurs or a rope to climb a tree has somehow become separated to the point of meaning "bad tree guy" vs "good tree guy" and it is just not so. I have seen plenty of super knowledgeable tree guys that just don't get the trimming process. And I have worked with plenty of guys that haven't got a high school education that are some of the best in their field. That's not the point.
It sounds like you are in a position similar to where I was 5 years ago. I had been using the same techniques that I was taught 35 years ago and everything was getting so hard. So I was making excuses to myself on why it was better to gently use my spurs on a trim job. I didn't know how much longer I would be able to climb. Faced with that possibility I started doing research and, low and behold, discovered all the tremendous advancements in climbing equipment and techniques. The Big Shot alone is a dream come true! Ascenders, light weight, 11 mm ropes, swivel pulleys, Lockjack, friction savers, the new pole saws are incredible!, just open up a Sherrill catalog and have a looksee!
So much of residential trimming is aesthetic and, at least in our area, we have a LOT of clients who do not want to see spur marks in their trees. For that reason alone spurs should not be used in trimming.
However, we also live in an area with high fire risk (forest interface) and have had many clients who want the lower 15 - 30 ft of limbs stripped off their pines for fire safety. When you are doing multi-acres of trees, the only way to do that cost effectively, is with spurs. That is up to the client.
You should have the skills that allows you to make these choices based on the situation and client preference.
D Mc
Whether you use spurs or a rope to climb a tree has somehow become separated to the point of meaning "bad tree guy" vs "good tree guy" and it is just not so. I have seen plenty of super knowledgeable tree guys that just don't get the trimming process. And I have worked with plenty of guys that haven't got a high school education that are some of the best in their field. That's not the point.
It sounds like you are in a position similar to where I was 5 years ago. I had been using the same techniques that I was taught 35 years ago and everything was getting so hard. So I was making excuses to myself on why it was better to gently use my spurs on a trim job. I didn't know how much longer I would be able to climb. Faced with that possibility I started doing research and, low and behold, discovered all the tremendous advancements in climbing equipment and techniques. The Big Shot alone is a dream come true! Ascenders, light weight, 11 mm ropes, swivel pulleys, Lockjack, friction savers, the new pole saws are incredible!, just open up a Sherrill catalog and have a looksee!
So much of residential trimming is aesthetic and, at least in our area, we have a LOT of clients who do not want to see spur marks in their trees. For that reason alone spurs should not be used in trimming.
However, we also live in an area with high fire risk (forest interface) and have had many clients who want the lower 15 - 30 ft of limbs stripped off their pines for fire safety. When you are doing multi-acres of trees, the only way to do that cost effectively, is with spurs. That is up to the client.
You should have the skills that allows you to make these choices based on the situation and client preference.
D Mc
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Mitchell
ArboristSite Operative
history
Reading between the lines of your more recent posts I figured there was history... I would not have expected what you describe above...
Making a martyr of ones self over any issue can obviously lead to extreme behavior.
I suspect most tree folks here would never admit to what they really do or don't do hear for fear of backlash and marginalization.
Where I do not worship the Gospel according to ISA, I have found however that at least it is moving aboriculture into a science based profession. Trouble in my opinion is taking everything that comes down the pipe without critical thought and adopting and preaching it.
I spur if I feel it is needed after weighing out all the factors. By and large I no longer spur a tree other then removal. If it comes down to safety issues or high time requirements I will spur [usually just a portion then I toss em down].
Like most things I found after practice, spurless is a pretty efficient way to get around. It just sucked at first as I knew I could scamper up a lead in seconds that was taking minutes. In fact I prefer sprurless rope ascents when I am trying to bypass a lot of branches. For me I could not do it until I spent some time with others who could show me how.
Reading between the lines of your more recent posts I figured there was history... I would not have expected what you describe above...
Making a martyr of ones self over any issue can obviously lead to extreme behavior.
I suspect most tree folks here would never admit to what they really do or don't do hear for fear of backlash and marginalization.
Where I do not worship the Gospel according to ISA, I have found however that at least it is moving aboriculture into a science based profession. Trouble in my opinion is taking everything that comes down the pipe without critical thought and adopting and preaching it.
I spur if I feel it is needed after weighing out all the factors. By and large I no longer spur a tree other then removal. If it comes down to safety issues or high time requirements I will spur [usually just a portion then I toss em down].
Like most things I found after practice, spurless is a pretty efficient way to get around. It just sucked at first as I knew I could scamper up a lead in seconds that was taking minutes. In fact I prefer sprurless rope ascents when I am trying to bypass a lot of branches. For me I could not do it until I spent some time with others who could show me how.
Clearance you only quoted a portion of what I wrote. Understand that when people take the easy road it puts a bad rep out there for all of us. I like this industry because of the need that persists in our society. Everyone in the industry should be out pruning trees properly not doing it the easiest way because "they dont think it will harm the tree" but based on good proven practice. We look up to those in the business who have tested theory in the field because they improve our reputation and through education we all do better.
Just because most of your customers are referrals/repeat customers doesnt mean you shouldn't do the work in an ethical. We are called professionals because we have been taught and provide services beyond that of the layperson.
Still ranting on this one.....
Just because most of your customers are referrals/repeat customers doesnt mean you shouldn't do the work in an ethical. We are called professionals because we have been taught and provide services beyond that of the layperson.
Still ranting on this one.....
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Fair enough Mitchell, thanks.
oldirty
Addicted to ArboristSite
when it comes to ROW work man go ahead and spike away. didnt we kind of come to an agreement that when it comes to a tree in the wires it becomes a weed? so knowing that, go ahead and get into anyway you can with your safety coming first.
that being said, if you cant prune your tree spikeless you just might not be as good as you think you are.
as offensive as it might sound, if i see you in a tree with spikes on and its not coming down, you might be a hack.
again that being said i had to take a big leader off an oak last saturday that was up over the house. i troline'd in and humped up in to the tree and got to my "work". at this point i got the spikes sent up for the leader to come out and went to town on it. but i promise you this, those spikes only saw the wood that was coming out and thats it. and thats the way it should be. spike only whats coming out.
oldirty
that being said, if you cant prune your tree spikeless you just might not be as good as you think you are.
as offensive as it might sound, if i see you in a tree with spikes on and its not coming down, you might be a hack.
again that being said i had to take a big leader off an oak last saturday that was up over the house. i troline'd in and humped up in to the tree and got to my "work". at this point i got the spikes sent up for the leader to come out and went to town on it. but i promise you this, those spikes only saw the wood that was coming out and thats it. and thats the way it should be. spike only whats coming out.
oldirty
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
It seems to me that you pick and choose the science that fits what you want to do.
FWIW I do not know what a certified consulting arborist is, the only thing I know of is Registered Consulting Arborist which is a very hard, and costly accreditation processes. Sounds like a regular CA who used consultant...I think everyone has seen where the other guy has screwed up. It does make one look better. Though I'm sure there are a few here who have never misdiagnosed a problem.
That is not the problem here. Jon considers himself ethical, everyone else is trying to skin the homeowner. He refuses to accept that there is "new" science out there. (I thought that was from the 70's-80's myself)
He has not worked with any competent modern climbers, since he thinks it is so much more effort. He should see Greg Liu up in Chico!
Our place her is not to brow beat him for being lost in the past, but to try to convince him that our view is valid. Sounds like it will be another McPeak encounter, bu so what. There is some good discussion here.
Jon Denver
ArboristSite Operative
Sorry to renew this deadhorse yall.
"He refuses to accept that there is "new" science out there."
Jon,
Show me
I am not so old school that I cant change my ways. From what I have seen most species re-route their pathways around damage. So this becomes an argument about aesthetics only as long as you dont go ape$#@! on the spikes and girdle the damn thing. Just because some ISA non climber (not talking about you) types bring out "new science" does not mean it should not be proven incorrect by field observation.
"He refuses to accept that there is "new" science out there."
Jon,
Show me
I am not so old school that I cant change my ways. From what I have seen most species re-route their pathways around damage. So this becomes an argument about aesthetics only as long as you dont go ape$#@! on the spikes and girdle the damn thing. Just because some ISA non climber (not talking about you) types bring out "new science" does not mean it should not be proven incorrect by field observation.
