Square ground chisel chain vs. round ground chisel chain

[Clint C.]

I have been enjoying all of the comments and research done here so I finally am contributing some testing and information for others to comment on and use.

So guys I have seen and read about how square ground chisel chain was so much faster then round ground chisel chain. The information I was reading was showing the square ground chain was about 10-15% faster than the round ground chain (according to Madsen's website). Well, finally today (12-20-15) I decided to find out for myself.

For the test I used my almost brand new Husqvarna 562XPW with a 28" bar on a 20" fir log. I sharpened the two round ground chains with my Oregon 511 AX chain grinder. I have used this grinder for about 4-years and have a side business sharpening chains doing about 400-chains per year.

I tested three different chains all were 3/8" pitch and .050" guage. The first chain tested was an Oregon full-skip chisel chain round ground by me. The second chain tested was a Stihl full-skip chisel chain round ground by me. The third chain tested was a brand new Stihl full-skip chisel chain square ground.

So here were the results:
-Oregon full-skip chisel chain round ground. 1st cut=18.45 seconds, 2nd cut =17.19 seconds / average time was 17.82 seconds. (I only did two cuts with this chain vs. the others I did five cuts)
-Stihl full-skip chisel chain round ground. 1st cut =17.92 seconds, 2nd cut=17.65, 3rd cut =17.40 seconds, 4th cut =18.70, 5th cut =18.50 seconds / average time was 18.03 seconds.
-Stihl full-skip chisel chain square ground brand new. 1st cut =18.74 seconds, 2nd cut =17.32 seconds, 3rd cut =16.05 seconds, 4th cut =15.09 seconds, 5th cut =16.32 seconds / average time was 16.70 seconds.

As you can see the square ground is faster but not as fast as I thought it would be. The square ground was faster than the other two but not by much at all. I did the math and the Stihl square ground chain was only 8% faster than the Stihl round ground chain.

I am wanting to justify buying a $1,000 new Simington square chain grinder from Madsen's (Silvey is now out of business and I do not want to buy a used Silvey as parts will be scarce real quick). I really wanted that square ground chain to beat the others by a wide margin. To me the 8% faster does not justify the purchase of a new $1,000 Simington square chain grinder.

Clint

 

[1270d]

New chains are dull

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Clint C.]

New chains are dull

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the reply. So you think that a Simington square grinder would make that brank new Stihl square ground chisel chain sharper? I definitely know that Oregon chain can be made sharper then when it is new but I do not know about the Stihl chain. They do pretty darn good on their factory sharpness.

 

[Philbert]

Welcome to A.S.!

There are guys here in some of the square filing threads who might be able to 'tune up' your square chains for the cost of shipping, or a modest amount more. It would be a small investment compared to a new Simington grinder. Make sure that they grind the chain, instead of filing it, to get the comparison you want.

How much of an improvement in speed would you need to justify your purchase? Or would you justify it by square grinding chains for others?

Philbert

 

[I'llbearealclimberoneday]

Interesting results.

The edge on square ground chains is all over the map out of the box. Much more so than with round IME. I don't really know of any companies out here running square if your looking to add it to your business. Seems most of them on this side use shop ground blue chains or new guy file attempts. Being harder to hand file, more temperamental and less favorable in dirty conditions, it would be hard to guess how long it would take to recoupe your initial expense.

I love my 562xp and my 511ax.

I'm about 20 minutes up the 205 from you

 

[northmanlogging]

get a square grind dialed in right and it will blow away round grind, you have to maintain rider depth, and angles though, so it takes a little more patience but you get a better result in the end.

 

[Clint C.]

Welcome to A.S.!

There are guys here in some of the square filing threads who might be able to 'tune up' your square chains for the cost of shipping, or a modest amount more. It would be a small investment compared to a new Simington grinder. Make sure that they grind the chain, instead of filing it, to get the comparison you want.

How much of an improvement in speed would you need to justify your purchase? Or would you justify it by square grinding chains for others?

Philbert

I was expecting a noticeable difference in the feel and speed of the cut not just on the clock. I was really hoping for say a 15-20% faster cut with the square ground.

 

[Clint C.]

Interesting results.

The edge on square ground chains is all over the map out of the box. Much more so than with round IME. I don't really know of any companies out here running square if your looking to add it to your business. Seems most of them on this side use shop ground blue chains or new guy file attempts. Being harder to hand file, more temperamental and less favorable in dirty conditions, it would be hard to guess how long it would take to recoupe your initial expense.

I love my 562xp and my 511ax.

I'm about 20 minutes up the 205 from you

I hear ya on the harder to hand file and less stay sharp ability in dirty conditions.

I am glad I did the comparison for my own knowledge. Like I said in my initial post I hear all the time how good, fast and amazing square ground is. I have to tell you though in the cut the square ground did not feel any faster then the round ground at all. On the clock it was faster but really it was only like 7.6% faster. I mean if the square chain is only 7.6% faster how can anyone really tell that little of a difference.

I really want that new Simington square grinder but the $1,000 and all the other stuff that goes with a square grind (separate tool to grind out the gullets occasionally, separate tool to grind down the depth gauges occasionally) vs. that Oregon 511AX is awesome and does it all with just a changing of the wheel for the depth gauges.

Speaking about that Oregon 511AX when I switch from left handed cutters to right handed cutters I take an extra 20-seconds and adjust it slightly (my machine naturally wants to cut the right handed cutters about .010" shorter than the left handed cutters) so I get the left and right handed cutters within .002" of each other using a digital dial caliper.

Thanks for the comment,

Clint

 

[Trx250r180]

Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,

 

[Clint C.]

Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,

Excellent point. I know that if you took a round ground and tried to bore it into a tree it is fighting you hard. In my test the square ground chain did feel slightly smoother than the round ground.

I mainly cut firewood and most of it has been drug around the mud, dirt and rocks. I hear that the square ground really gets dull quickly compared to the round ground when cutting in dirty conditions. Do you know if it is a huge difference in stay sharp ability between the two types?

Thanks for your response,

Clint

 

[KenJax Tree]

Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,

If you run Husky's vibration isn't an issue[emoji57]

I look at it like this....square chain might be faster 20% but if it takes 20% longer to file and needs sharpened 20% more often( i cut dirty wood) i'm 20% slower.

 

[Clint C.]

If you run Husky's vibration isn't an issue[emoji57]

I look at it like this....square chain might be faster 20% but if it takes 20% longer to file and needs sharpened 20% more often( i cut dirty wood) i'm 20% slower.

Exactly right but man I really want that Simington square grinder.

Thanks,
Clint

 

[slowp]

Excellent point. I know that if you took a round ground and tried to bore it into a tree it is fighting you hard. In my test the square ground chain did feel slightly smoother than the round ground.

I mainly cut firewood and most of it has been drug around the mud, dirt and rocks. I hear that the square ground really gets dull quickly compared to the round ground when cutting in dirty conditions. Do you know if it is a huge difference in stay sharp ability between the two types?

Thanks for your response,

Clint

Yes. There is a difference. Round file is the chain type used on the landings around here because it holds up better in dirty wood, is easily filed back to sharp out in the woods, and can take the abuse of the rigging rats. One chaser was puzzled though. He said, "I send the saw down with a sharp chain and it always comes back with a dull chain." They used round file on that saw.

 

[Trx250r180]

If the wood is that dirty ,change the top plate to 10-15 degrees ,and it will last longer at a sacrifice of some speed ,landing saws are round mainly because they can touch up the chain easier with a round file ,which is easier for most .

 

[Trx250r180]

If you run Husky's vibration isn't an issue[emoji57]

I look at it like this....square chain might be faster 20% but if it takes 20% longer to file and needs sharpened 20% more often( i cut dirty wood) i'm 20% slower.

I bet my rubber mounted saws with square have less vibration than a husky with round ,i have had 372 and 395 huskies ,and currently have a 441 spring saw ,the engines bounce around inside the handle so much ,they remind me of one of those gold mine machines bouncing around shaking the gold out of the dirt .

 

[Trx250r180]

My take on chain
Here is a couple demo links to help explain what i have found works for me .
Here is a good .404 work chain that lasts ,notice the top plate is close to 15 or so degrees ,and if you look at the side plate ,it is darn near up and down ,no hook or very little side plate hook ,what this seems to do is cut vs tear the fibers of the wood ,when you tear ,that is grabby ,which vibrates worse and does not bore as good ,this also allows you to run the rakes higher which aids to more smooth also

Here is a round .404 ,if you look at the side plate ,it has more curve or hook ,this hook shape will grab harder ,thus vibrate more by being grabby , the top corner is also more pointed which is fragile compared to the photos above so dirt will take out the corner a little faster in my opinion .

 

[fool skip]

If you cut logs for a living, square ground or filed chisel is the only way to go. A properly set up grinder will add 15 to 20% production increase. You'll get straighter bucking cuts and you won't get your nuts kicked if you have to cut a jack hole or do a lot of boring. Round file is fine for the landing and firewood. Out of dozens of fallers I've worked with I've only seen two guys who were exceptional at filing square chisel. Both of them switched hands to file the off side, something I could never do.

 

[Philbert]

If you cut logs for a living, square ground or filed chisel is the only way to go. A properly set up grinder will add 15 to 20% production increase. You'll get straighter bucking cuts and you won't get your nuts kicked if you have to cut a jack hole or do a lot of boring.

I understand the speed increase. Please explain why square ground/filed chain would cut straighter.

Thanks.

Philbert

 

[fool skip]

I understand the speed increase. Please explain why square ground/filed chain would cut straighter.

Thanks.

Philbert

I've noticed round chain seems to wander around more on big cuts. Try matching three or four bucking cuts with a 36" bar on a big butt cut and you will see what I mean. This has been my experience, yours may vary.

 

[CR888]

Take the bar tip and bore into a fir log,and the square will be much smoother,the chain vibrations are much less being less grabby,even if it was no faster the smoothness is worth it over round,

So true this post, the trouble making chain choices based on reading the innernets is everyone is only interested in what the fastest chain is, not what is the smoothest or best for a particular application. Where l come from semi chisel wins hands down at the end of the day speed wise, despite it being the slowest cookie cutting chain.