Starting Milling Business Q's n A's

[4x4American]

Howdy All,

I've come up with a few more q's and am in search of some a's.
I'm a few weeks away from when my mill is going to be here. I've got a guy who called me and asked me to come give him an estimate. Said he has a 21' Oak log that's 36" diameter at the big end. No small end measurement. He wants 10 3" thick slabs from it 21' long. And I get the idea that it's a yard tree. I'm going to meet him next weekend. Anyways, the capacities for the mill say 36" diameter and 21' long, but 4500lbs weight capacity. I don't think there's any green logs that weigh under 4500# that are 21' long and 36" diameter. I understand that they give a certain percentage of wiggle room for how much weight can make or break it, but 4500# seems like a low weight rating to me, almost as if they're just rating it at that to cover their assets. So what do yawl think?

Next question,
What scale should I use to determine potential boardfeet in a log? Is there one that's more commonly used for bandmills?

And finally, any advice to give on what I should do for estimate? Should I bring a cutting contract with me, and do a writeup about blade change charges, finding nails in the wood, etc.

Thanks!

 

[hamish]

Myself, I would take the time to learn hands on, and spend some time with your new mill actually milling before even considering, taking on a potential paying job.

Doing so will give you an idea of you and your mills capabilities, along with a greater respect of what is actually involved milling up a log. The light bulb will turn on one day when you realize its impossible to satisfy a cut list with the logs at hand.

 

[cityslicker]

I run a lucas mill not a bandsaw mill, but none the less for the job you are describing I would be charging by the hour and absolutely make sure you have a clause stating you charge if the saw hits debris. But..... like Hamish said, make sure you know what you are doing before you take on well paying saw jobs. You have to be the pro and play the part, every customer can lead to many more customers and soon enough if done well, your business will be a snow ball rolling downhill getting bigger and rolling faster with every revolution.

Also ten three inch thick slabs out of a log that measures 36" on the butt may not quite be realistic so tell him to get you actual full measurements on both ends with lots of pictures. Pictures, pictures, pictures. It is not cost effective for you to go drive out to every mill job to see what you are in for, pics will help you and your clients not waste time, gas and energy as well as the potential for better jobs.

I suppose there is only one way to find out if your new mill can handle that size log, so when you do let us know!

 

[4x4American]

Thanks for the input. I told him that I am not going to try and test out my mills capacities with a log that big. I told him that if we buck it in half I'll do it. I talked with a guy from VT who does portable milling and he pretty much said it's not worth the risk, plus someone could get seriously hurt/killed somehow. Anyways, I have a guy on the line who says he has a lot of pine and spruce for me to come practice milling on. He doesn't care how awful they come out and seems to really want me to be successful for some reason. He says that there is a definite need for a portable sawyer around here. Anyways we're going to split the lumber 50/50. I'm going there as soon as I get the mill.

 

[Philbo]

Huge logs (like described in 1st post), yard logs, gnarly logs, logs that folks want "slabs" from, short logs (under 8'), small dimension sticks, etc are all situations where I think it's better to charge by the hour. Especially when you're new at running a band mill and just getting used to a brand new one that you certainly don't want eff up!

The TK2000 has a hydraulic log lift, right? Is that what's rated for 4500#? I'm sure you could go somewhat above that, but don't have one of your 1st jobs be the time that you find out how much lifting power you really have. Best not to push it on that loader to the max on a regular basis too, of course.

Best of luck. I'm relatively new to saw milling as well and currently operate a smaller (than TK2000) full manual band mill, which is great for learning the basics. Not so great for solo sawing, or high production days, but it will come…..or a hydraulic mill will!

Congrats on new mill, btw! Got to be exciting for you. I remember following your thread a while back about working as a faller for a logging crew to get out of your day job and do something different. Always wondered where you came out from that. All the best luck to you and your business!

 

[Philbo]

Also, just some words of advice. Have a nice big stock of sharp bands on hand at all times. To start out, try and find someone somewhat local who you trust to re-sharpen and set your bands for a reasonable price, or you could box them up and send em in the mail to whatever manufacturer, then they'll send em to someone who you could have maybe found yourself and dealt with directly. Whatever the case, don't forget to factor in the total cost of your bands and resharps/shipping/etc when you're breaking down costs. This is easy to overlook or gloss over, but you're gonna go through a lot of bands in a short time if you stay busy sawing. Gotta get a good system down for re-sharps.

 

[4x4American]

Thanks Philbo!

In reply: Yes the mill has a hydraulic log lift. The deck capacity is what's rated at 4500# I'm not sure about the log lift. The guy said he has a FEL tractor to load and take the slabs off. I told him that I'd do it if we cut in half because I don't want to test out the limits on a new mill. I think I might get Cook's Cat Claw Sharpener and Dual tooth setter. Just add it right in to my loan. I'm going to use it eventually, and I might as well take care of it now. Plus they have a deal going on, you buy the sharpener/dual tooth setter and they'll send you ten bands to go with it. They ship two cams with it, one for the bands they're sending you, and another for whatever other band you'd like. I would just as soon start out doing the WM resharp program as they just opened one up not too far from here and I've heard great things about the program.

Thanks for the advice!

Doug

 

[Dave Boyt]

There are some log weight calculators on line that you could check out. The one on WoodWeb estimates your log weighs 7,700 pounds. Even though your mill can handle 36" diameter, that doesn't mean it can make a 36" wide cut. My Norwood is also rated at 36" diameter, but can only cut a 26" wide slab. The only way I would consider a log like yours would be if the customer has it quartered (not halved) it for you. If he wants wide slabs, mark the boards so he can keep them in sequence. He can reassemble the two halves when he he builds with them. Also make sure he really needs lumber that long. Just about everyone who is in business has struggled with long logs... only to have the customer cut them in half with a chain saw! Starting out with a sharpening service is a good idea. There are so many variables that having a constant supply of sharp blades will be a big help. Even for part time cutting, I'd recommend at least two dozen blades.

 

[4x4American]

Thanks Dave.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Well, I don't think it's fair to the customer, to be the NEW owner of any sawmill and then charge by the hour!

There's NO WAY a new owner knows what is going on, it takes time to learn how to properly mill logs and also how your new mill works...

For me, I feel the customer is also paying for my knowledge, not just my labor, and new owners will be lacking in the knowledge department.

Sorry, if this isn't a popular answer... lol

SR

 

[Philbo]

Sawyer Rob is definitely right about that. I guess my post was referring to when the mill operator has the fundamentals down, then you need to charge by the hour with certain situations or else you're losing money running your mill when you charge by bd/ft.

I'd recommend going over to the fellow's place with the pine and spruce first and getting all the practice you can before you pick up any paying jobs. Another member said it earlier, but it doesn't help your rep through word of mouth if you are charging pro prices, but not delivering pro quality. I've run into this first hand and would advise you to get all the practice you can either for free/reduced rate and/or for folks who are friends and family. It's not rocket science, but there's definitely a learning curve that only comes with a bit of experience.

 

[4x4American]

My first 4 jobs I have lined up are 50/50 split, and they understand I'm new at it. I am not that dumb that I can't figure out to charge less while I'm inexperienced and don't have it down yet!

 

[Dave Boyt]

I don't see how anyone can lose on a 50/50 split, as long as you have use for your share. Most customers are very understanding and will work with you. Just take your time and try to keep the clamps lower than the blade.

"What is the proper way to call them , bands or blades?"

Yes.

 

[4x4American]

Yessir, I need to build a woodshed and a sawmill port and a few other things I have plenty of uses for my share

 

[4x4American]

Another question(s) has come up. Can anyone shed some light on doing an LLC vs Corp or whatever else? Also, you know how you see "Licensed and Insured" in alot of companies ads? ....What's the deal with being licensed? I've got the sawmill insurance part, but not sure if there's any licensing to go along. I've been making calls to my states tax folks and dept of state and whoever else. None of them have any idea what a sawmill is let alone a portable one!

 

[GrantD]

Talk to your city/county/state business licensing department. Where I'm at, your cost of licensing for both city & state depends on the board footage per day that you will produce.

Now for the LLC vs. S corp, that's a situational decision. The best advice I ever got when setting up my sole proprietorship (not sawmill related mind you) was to buy an hour of time from both an attorney and my accountant. You have to spend some money on the front end to save you time and major headaches when it comes tax time and (hopefully it won't ever happen) to protect your personal assets if someone decides to press a civil suit over something business related.

 

[spacemule]

Well, I don't think it's fair to the customer, to be the NEW owner of any sawmill and then charge by the hour!

There's NO WAY a new owner knows what is going on, it takes time to learn how to properly mill logs and also how your new mill works...

For me, I feel the customer is also paying for my knowledge, not just my labor, and new owners will be lacking in the knowledge department.

Sorry, if this isn't a popular answer... lol

SR

I disagree. The customer knows who he's dealing with from the start. It's the sawyer's prerogative how he wants to be paid. If the customer doesn't like it, he's free to contract with someone else. The rate per hour is also negotiable, and naturally a seasoned operator should command more than a rank rookie.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I disagree. The customer knows who he's dealing with from the start. It's the sawyer's prerogative how he wants to be paid. If the customer doesn't like it, he's free to contract with someone else. The rate per hour is also negotiable, and naturally a seasoned operator should command more than a rank rookie.

I don't know how long you have been a sawyer, but the customers I've deal with in the last 10 + years, MAYBE two or three knew anything at all about milling a log, or how to get out of a log what they wanted.

I feel (as the sawyer) it was also MY job, to help the customer get what they want, and that's one of the things I (as the sawyer) need to know.

Now, maybe you don't give a rip about all that, but I do......AND any sawyer starting out, doesn't begin to know the in's and outs of reading a log to get the best possible lumber... (unless they have been the business for a while)

SR

 

[spacemule]

I don't know how long you have been a sawyer, but the customers I've deal with in the last 10 + years, MAYBE two or three knew anything at all about milling a log, or how to get out of a log what they wanted.

I feel (as the sawyer) it was also MY job, to help the customer get what they want, and that's one of the things I (as the sawyer) need to know.

Now, maybe you don't give a rip about all that, but I do......AND any sawyer starting out, doesn't begin to know the in's and outs of reading a log to get the best possible lumber... (unless they have been the business for a while)

SR

You don't have to know squat about sawing to ask someone how long they've been doing the work and what their experience level is. It's not your job to babysit your customers and make decisions for them. It's rather naive to advocate being a seasoned expert before charging for your work. No one's time is free.

 

[4x4American]

Spacemule: haven't seen ya in awhile! I agree with ya.


Grant D: I talked to the family accountant today (he's a family friend from way back when). He doesn't seem to think that becoming an LLC or INC would help me at this point in time, he's recommended I go and submit a DBA certificate with the county clerk and he'll get me a federal tax id and help me do quarterly returns and whatnot. I have insurance on the way. What sorts of things would I need to address with an attorney?

Thanks yawl,
Doug