Kevin
Addicted to ArboristSite
I`d like to give this a whirl but it looks like the static line might get hung up above the block.
Is anyone using this method and does it retrieve well?
Is anyone using this method and does it retrieve well?
Static Removable False Crotch
- Thread starter Kevin
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John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
There are several variants, I prefer to just fishpole it at the base of the tree with a running bo'lin. Most of what I'm doing I'm not too concerned with the force multiplier.
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
What do you mean by 'fishpole'?
And I hate to sound stupid, but I have no clue what you are asking, Kevin.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
run the block through a crothc and tie the retrieval line at the base of the tree or somewhere I can get it easily on my way down.
Untie the bo'lin and pull the block down with the doubled lowering line.
Untie the bo'lin and pull the block down with the doubled lowering line.
Kevin
Addicted to ArboristSite
Brian,
Your block is fastened to the rigging line and a static line.
At the block, the static line has loop similar to a bowline and the rigging line passes through it and over a limb.
You secure the rigging line with the static line and retrieve it using the static line as well.
Your block is fastened to the rigging line and a static line.
At the block, the static line has loop similar to a bowline and the rigging line passes through it and over a limb.
You secure the rigging line with the static line and retrieve it using the static line as well.
Kevin
Addicted to ArboristSite
This might explain it a little better ...
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Looks good in theory, Kevin. And I can see how easily it would work. Unfortunately, to use this method you need a rigging line that is 4X the height of your setting height of the block. Most guys have a 150' rigging line, maybe a 200' if they are really lucky. With a 150' line, you could only set youir block 37' high (Really 40+', if you are careful not to lose the ends of the rope). If you use a 200' line, you end up with an extra 100'+ of rope on the ground during your work operation if you set your block at 50'. OK if you are working alone, but I try to avoid having lots of extra rope laying under a tree for the groundies to snag and drag to the chipper!
Kneejerk Bombas
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Brian, You misunderstood.
One rope holds the pulley and is tied off at the ground, that only needs to be a bit longer than the branch height. The second rope goes through the pulley, that needs to be twice as long as the branch is high.
The whole deal can be set and retreived from the ground.
The problem is it creates huge loads on the system and there is lots of stretch and limb bending in the system. This is only good for very small loads.
One rope holds the pulley and is tied off at the ground, that only needs to be a bit longer than the branch height. The second rope goes through the pulley, that needs to be twice as long as the branch is high.
The whole deal can be set and retreived from the ground.
The problem is it creates huge loads on the system and there is lots of stretch and limb bending in the system. This is only good for very small loads.
Mike,
Kevin is describing a method that Ken Palmer showed us at Arbormaster training. It is different than your (also my) method, and does require lots of line. But it eliminates chafing on the crotch, and reduces the crotch load to normal, as it is tied off at the branch not on the ground.
While I sort of agree that the simple method you use should be only used for small loads, I break that rule often, and have had ablsolutely no problems. it is amazing the load a crotch can hold if the rope is right in the apex.
Kevin is describing a method that Ken Palmer showed us at Arbormaster training. It is different than your (also my) method, and does require lots of line. But it eliminates chafing on the crotch, and reduces the crotch load to normal, as it is tied off at the branch not on the ground.
While I sort of agree that the simple method you use should be only used for small loads, I break that rule often, and have had ablsolutely no problems. it is amazing the load a crotch can hold if the rope is right in the apex.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
"Your block is fastened to the rigging line and a static line.
At the block, the static line has loop similar to a bowline and the rigging line passes through it and over a limb.
You secure the rigging line with the static line and retrieve it using the static line as well."
Kev,
I find the above description confusing... Putting these systems we use into words is challenging and I try to be as clear as possible.. so there can be no misunderstandings... It is a challenge.
Does "through it" refer to the loop or the block?... Does rigging line fastenned to block mean running through the block? How do you secure and retrieve the rigging line with static line?
I'd be guessing at what this all means.
Where did the term Static removable False Crotch come from?
I hope you don't take this as a criticism... I Am just requesting that all of us be as clear as possible in our writing.
God Bless,
Daniel
At the block, the static line has loop similar to a bowline and the rigging line passes through it and over a limb.
You secure the rigging line with the static line and retrieve it using the static line as well."
Kev,
I find the above description confusing... Putting these systems we use into words is challenging and I try to be as clear as possible.. so there can be no misunderstandings... It is a challenge.
Does "through it" refer to the loop or the block?... Does rigging line fastenned to block mean running through the block? How do you secure and retrieve the rigging line with static line?
I'd be guessing at what this all means.
Where did the term Static removable False Crotch come from?
I hope you don't take this as a criticism... I Am just requesting that all of us be as clear as possible in our writing.
God Bless,
Daniel
Ummmmmmmm, i think as Brian states it he is right this time to set it, Mike to use it. In the way presented, a bight comes over the anchor to the groundwith the bight touching the ground, and both ends touching on the other side, that makes 4 legs to install by inverting the mess on the anchor. So 4x drop to install, 2x drop to use.
But i have a cheat i developped. The second line that is the bowline that girth hitches on the anchor to support the block and rigging line can help. Tie both ends of rigging line together, Tie standing end of bowline/girth line to the ends of rigging line. Set rigging line over limb till bight comes down to recieve pulley, with other line tied to it's ends. Tie bowline conneted to support pulley, pulling standing end of bowline through the bowline ring, to make an ever growing running bowline, that also pulls the 2 ends of the rigging line down (saving the 2 legs of length for the rig, alternately using throwline here), through the inverting bowline that forms a choking girth on the anchor. So, it now requires only 3x drop in total line to install, now equal in rope resources to an anchor line redirected from the ground tied off to support riring pulley. Only doing that is easier, but in trade the jig grips, and also puts less anchor load on the anchor! This is important, because the pulley with full braking from the ground, will already be putting 2x load on anchor. Doing this the easy way (non-choke) increases that load another 1.7x or so depending on the friction of the supporting line on the anchor,a nd the angle of the line.
The stiffer the line for the bowline/inverting the easier it is to place, remove, needs a clean path.
But i have a cheat i developped. The second line that is the bowline that girth hitches on the anchor to support the block and rigging line can help. Tie both ends of rigging line together, Tie standing end of bowline/girth line to the ends of rigging line. Set rigging line over limb till bight comes down to recieve pulley, with other line tied to it's ends. Tie bowline conneted to support pulley, pulling standing end of bowline through the bowline ring, to make an ever growing running bowline, that also pulls the 2 ends of the rigging line down (saving the 2 legs of length for the rig, alternately using throwline here), through the inverting bowline that forms a choking girth on the anchor. So, it now requires only 3x drop in total line to install, now equal in rope resources to an anchor line redirected from the ground tied off to support riring pulley. Only doing that is easier, but in trade the jig grips, and also puts less anchor load on the anchor! This is important, because the pulley with full braking from the ground, will already be putting 2x load on anchor. Doing this the easy way (non-choke) increases that load another 1.7x or so depending on the friction of the supporting line on the anchor,a nd the angle of the line.
The stiffer the line for the bowline/inverting the easier it is to place, remove, needs a clean path.
Either is retreivable.
IN the inverting rig the bowline girths around the anchor to be like a choking sling that holds the rigging line on the pulley. The standing end of the bowline pulls the choking girth hitch back open, to release and retrieve after use.
IN the inverting rig the bowline girths around the anchor to be like a choking sling that holds the rigging line on the pulley. The standing end of the bowline pulls the choking girth hitch back open, to release and retrieve after use.
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Here's the picture Kevin sent me. Mike, I did NOT misunderstand. YOU misunderstood.
With this picture, Spydey's cheat method makes sense. If the rigging line is not long enough to implement the setup, you can tie the tails together and tie a tag line to them just so you can finish the setup.
With this picture, Spydey's cheat method makes sense. If the rigging line is not long enough to implement the setup, you can tie the tails together and tie a tag line to them just so you can finish the setup.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Sorry Brian, my bad.
It should be noted that a bowline is not the knot to use here. A heavy load will pull it apart, bowlines should only be loaded against the tail, not pulling sideways on the loop.
I don't see why you need 4x the length of rope.
It should be noted that a bowline is not the knot to use here. A heavy load will pull it apart, bowlines should only be loaded against the tail, not pulling sideways on the loop.
I don't see why you need 4x the length of rope.
A while back i posted this as an FS, with steel ring that pulley slipped through easier than a bowline. Sometimes getting the pulley through the bowline ring can be touchy; so i tried this metal one instead. The thin black string is not wait supporting, doesnot have to be tied off. The black string is only for installation/removal, it steadys the ring for getting the pulley through the ring and pulls the ring down over the pulley for unlocking the girth hitch and removal.
i've also tried a spanset sling as bowline ring with a lightweight retrieval line on it, to save better ropes. The span set sling was so soft it wouldn't stay open very well for the pulley to sneak in and out.
Also the bowline/eyesplice/girth hitch has to be 3-4x the diameter of the host branch to wrap it's circumfrence.
All these things apply to the other rig, i show this variant to present wider background, diffrent angle of view at the same princi-pals working, yet diffrently applied. i remember how confusing plotting this inverting bowline trick was for a while!
Mike has some good points,as he types faster and shorter than me! Especially about not loading the bowline from inside the loop only, that gives it the security of its brother that loads so, the sheet bend; hence this variation and trying the spanset thing! But, on the other hand, i do run the system as previoulsy posted confidentally trusting between the choking, friction on the spar delivers seriously reduced loads to the actual knot, then i use the double blowline w/yosemite tie off at that point. But that same observation of his led to this pic; that i think is a lil'overkill. The line is 5/8" 3 strand with safety snap braided in (for pulley) and other end is large eyesplice that girths around the steel ring.
You would need 4x the length of drop in rigging line without the cheat i pictured previously. That cheat drops the need for the rigging line from 4x drop to 2x drop; for installation. Without the cheat the rigging line starts out folded in half, then draped over anchor, that makes 2 lines running from ground to anchor and back for installation. You can cut that need for rigging line furhter with a bigger bowline to hang the pulley lower with!
i've also tried a spanset sling as bowline ring with a lightweight retrieval line on it, to save better ropes. The span set sling was so soft it wouldn't stay open very well for the pulley to sneak in and out.
Also the bowline/eyesplice/girth hitch has to be 3-4x the diameter of the host branch to wrap it's circumfrence.
All these things apply to the other rig, i show this variant to present wider background, diffrent angle of view at the same princi-pals working, yet diffrently applied. i remember how confusing plotting this inverting bowline trick was for a while!
Mike has some good points,as he types faster and shorter than me! Especially about not loading the bowline from inside the loop only, that gives it the security of its brother that loads so, the sheet bend; hence this variation and trying the spanset thing! But, on the other hand, i do run the system as previoulsy posted confidentally trusting between the choking, friction on the spar delivers seriously reduced loads to the actual knot, then i use the double blowline w/yosemite tie off at that point. But that same observation of his led to this pic; that i think is a lil'overkill. The line is 5/8" 3 strand with safety snap braided in (for pulley) and other end is large eyesplice that girths around the steel ring.
You would need 4x the length of drop in rigging line without the cheat i pictured previously. That cheat drops the need for the rigging line from 4x drop to 2x drop; for installation. Without the cheat the rigging line starts out folded in half, then draped over anchor, that makes 2 lines running from ground to anchor and back for installation. You can cut that need for rigging line furhter with a bigger bowline to hang the pulley lower with!
rope
"Most guys have 150' of rope 200' at most" Did I hear you right? This means you limit yourself to bombing limbs out of the trees because you have no line to lower them cause the only line you have you use as a saftey line to tie yourself in with (saftey first). I would buy more rope rather than limit myself to bombing limbs out. Otherwise you are going to sound like the guys Mark Garvin, spokesman for the National Arborists' Association, was talking about in todays article in the Wall Street Juournal "The Trouble With Trees".
Show it to your boss when you ask for more rope for the job. Better yet buy your own rope so you don't have to share it, your rope,you will know it's history and trust it. Ask for a raise too, you can tell your boss you need the extra money to buy rope(extra equipment) to make him look good while you are out there working for him.
Work Safe and Live long
fiddus in silvis silenttbus
"Most guys have 150' of rope 200' at most" Did I hear you right? This means you limit yourself to bombing limbs out of the trees because you have no line to lower them cause the only line you have you use as a saftey line to tie yourself in with (saftey first). I would buy more rope rather than limit myself to bombing limbs out. Otherwise you are going to sound like the guys Mark Garvin, spokesman for the National Arborists' Association, was talking about in todays article in the Wall Street Juournal "The Trouble With Trees".
Show it to your boss when you ask for more rope for the job. Better yet buy your own rope so you don't have to share it, your rope,you will know it's history and trust it. Ask for a raise too, you can tell your boss you need the extra money to buy rope(extra equipment) to make him look good while you are out there working for him.
Work Safe and Live long
fiddus in silvis silenttbus
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Geofore,
I was not referring to total amount of rope, rather the length of each rope. My longest ropes are 150', but I have 3 lifelines and 3-4 lowering lines plus a 150' bullrope.
No, I do not 'bomb limbs because I don't have a rope except my lifeline'. I also do not work for an employer, I'm a freelance climber. I have several companies who use me when they need someone better than their own employees.
I was not referring to total amount of rope, rather the length of each rope. My longest ropes are 150', but I have 3 lifelines and 3-4 lowering lines plus a 150' bullrope.
No, I do not 'bomb limbs because I don't have a rope except my lifeline'. I also do not work for an employer, I'm a freelance climber. I have several companies who use me when they need someone better than their own employees.
Kneejerk Bombas
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What's the difference between a bull rope and a lowering line?
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Typically a lowering line is 1/2" rope. I use hand-me-down lifelines and buy new lifelines every 6 months or so. Bull ropes are larger for heavier loads. My bull rope is 5/8" Stable Braid rated at 16,300 lbs. Page 4 of The Catalog shows bull ropes.
