Stihl 032 Condenser Failures

[PogoInTheWoods]

Three different new OEM condensers in a row have failed on an 032 I've been working on. Points are perfectly clean and set with the crank stub tool. Coil tests good with a Stihl bench testing setup as did all of the condensers prior to installation. Saw starts and runs great for 20 minutes or so then craps out at higher rpm. Letting cool before restart provides no joy. Condenser is roached upon retest on bench. Any suggestions on what could be killing them?

I'm well aware of the conversion options to one of the electronic modules and not looking for suggestions there. I'd really just like to hear from someone who has some real world experience with this type of condenser failure..., and hopefully a solution to the problem.

TIA for any enlightenment.

 

[leeha]

Points and condensers are pricy for these saws. I bought to very clean 032's
at a tractor show a few years ago and both had bad ignitions. Both had weak
spark. I cleaned the points and managed to get them running but skipping
like a mofo. I priced out condensers and then decided to go with the chip
instead. They ran perfect after that.
If I were to bet, They had a high failure rate.

 

[Poleman]

I would go like @leeha suggests and do the module. Better spark, easier starting and an upgrade from points and condenser!!

 

[alexcagle]

Maybe it's the age of the condensors even though they're new, but old stock.
I would try to retrofit some other brand of condensor. You could drill the hole close, then file until to reach the tight fit required. Get an old McCulloch condensor, they never die. lol

 

[Conquistador3]

I'll be asking the Stihl dealer next time I am around there. But given the sheer number of chip ignition conversions sold for that saw, the condensers used on those saws are not the most enlightened design in history, kinda like Honda's motorcycle alternators from the 90's.

 

[mgr]

Nos condensor? They are bad from all those years on the shelf.

Leeha has it wright. Or you could source a new made condensor with 0,22 microfarad.

 

[scottr]

If you search the chainsaw forum for wima capacitor there is plenty of talk about it for the 031 ignition .

 

[MnSam]

The condensers are a weak point on the 031/032, if you can call the failing of a 30-40 year old condenser a weak point. There was a member here by the name of flyboy who was fairly savvy with electronics. He cross referenced the original 031/032 condensers to modern capacitors spec'd to 0.22uF 630Volt 10% tolerance. I have a few extra Wima capacitors, I can send you one if you'd like to try it. Keep the points and replace the old condenser with the new capacitor. It takes a little work, but if you are handy it is a fun project. I have done three 031's like this and have been happy. Very nice spark. Once warmed up my current 031 fires on a very slow pull. The challenge is the location for the new capacitor as it is a totally different size and shape. With a little grinding I was able to place it under the flywheel. I have seen others mount it to the case under the recoil cover.

 

[PogoInTheWoods]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. And thanks for the offer of the Wima cap, Sam. I have two Wima caps that I got from Oregonlogger some time ago. That was sort of the route I was thinking of going. It's also why I was asking if there was any possible cause for the OEM cap failures in my particular case since the Wimas just don't grow on trees these days. I certainly didn't want to toast one of the two I have if there was any known circumstances where maybe the coil was somehow the actual culprit burning up the condensers. I do realize the historic weakness of the OEM condensers but still thought it was pretty unusual for three in a row to fail. I talked to the dealer where I got the condensers and he's just going to give me one of the Oregon/Stens modules instead of replacing yet another cap. Will probably give it a whirl. Was just hoping to keep this saw original for the fellow who brought it to me.

And out of curiosity, has someone actually sourced 0.22uF 630Volt 10% caps other than the Wimas? I also understand that a 250~300Volt cap will possibly work? I am pretty handy with a soldering iron so the project itself probably would be fun..., especially if it worked!

 

[mgr]

You can try a mkp capacitor instead of a old wima one. Not sure if it would work because never tried it.

 

[Okie]

The condensers are a weak point on the 031/032, if you can call the failing of a 30-40 year old condenser a weak point. There was a member here by the name of flyboy who was fairly savvy with electronics. He cross referenced the original 031/032 condensers to modern capacitors spec'd to 0.22uF 630Volt 10% tolerance. I have a few extra Wima capacitors, I can send you one if you'd like to try it. Keep the points and replace the old condenser with the new capacitor. It takes a little work, but if you are handy it is a fun project. I have done three 031's like this and have been happy. Very nice spark. Once warmed up my current 031 fires on a very slow pull. The challenge is the location for the new capacitor as it is a totally different size and shape. With a little grinding I was able to place it under the flywheel. I have seen others mount it to the case under the recoil cover.

The voltage does not have to be that high at 630 volts. Look around online for .22uf (.2 to .25uf, 500 WV (working volts is ok) condensers to get size shape, etc, (uf is termed as microfarad)

I've mounted condensers outside the flywheel, like under the recoil cover or on the non ground side of the kill switch. (the wire going to the kill switch connects to the points/condenser under the flywheel. Mounting in these areas allows you to replace the condenser without have to pull the flywheel AND mounting in this area outside the flywheel allows a test run on a ignition system too see if this is all that is wrong with the engine.

Your condensers are going bad because they are old. NOS. (New Old Stock))

 

[Okie]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. And thanks for the offer of the Wima cap, Sam. I have two Wima caps that I got from Oregonlogger some time ago. That was sort of the route I was thinking of going. It's also why I was asking if there was any possible cause for the OEM cap failures in my particular case since the Wimas just don't grow on trees these days. I certainly didn't want to toast one of the two I have if there was any known circumstances where maybe the coil was somehow the actual culprit burning up the condensers. I do realize the historic weakness of the OEM condensers but still thought it was pretty unusual for three in a row to fail. I talked to the dealer where I got the condensers and he's just going to give me one of the Oregon/Stens modules instead of replacing yet another cap. Will probably give it a whirl. Was just hoping to keep this saw original for the fellow who brought it to me.

And out of curiosity, has someone actually sourced 0.22uF 630Volt 10% caps other than the Wimas? I also understand that a 250~300Volt cap will possibly work? I am pretty handy with a soldering iron so the project itself probably would be fun..., especially if it worked!

When soldering a ground wire lead onto a metal cased condenser when needed, like the ones used in automotive have a real hot soldering iron and have a stranded wire already tinned with solder ready and then burnish the metal on the condenser with a file and tin the metal and attach the wire all in one shot and remove heat as soon as the solder flows with the wire connected. (do not overheat the condenser) A small damp rag will remove the heat faster when it's cooling)

Cut a end off one of your old metal cased condensers and you will see how they are made inside, (wrapped layered tinfoil with wax usually) Seems a wonder from their internal construction that a condenser will survive very long at all in heat and vibration. I've seen a little measley erratic condenser cause a lot of headaches and $$$ on engines with other things getting replaced first and sometimes it's the last thing to get replaced as a cure.

I've not had any good luck with trying to use the Nova type electronic chips as replacements for points and condensers on chainsaws. (and I'm a electronic tech) Some guys really brag on them, but I've not seen any of the $25 and less live very long. Seen some that engine timing would also be disturbed.
I've got points and condenser systems on some of my chainsaws that are 50 years old and still going like the energizer bunny. (I know (from experience doing both) if really old points are disturbed, such as trying to re-gap or burnish, it's kinda like peeing into the wind)
I do a lot of re-searching before I ever attempt doing a re-mod to any of the aftermarket of electronic ignition systems.

 

[leeha]

The chips I used came from Sachs Dolmar to replace the module on the 114 model saws.
They are made by Mega Fire. I have had good luck with those. Just make sure you wire it
correctly.

 

[glock37]

Its the make up of the film used over time it fails even never used

 

[mgr]

The chips I used came from Sachs Dolmar to replace the module on the 114 model saws.
They are made by Mega Fire. I have had good luck with those. Just make sure you wire it
correctly.

Shame on you! Sachs Dolmar parts on a Stihl!

Those modules bumpt up in price over here. 60€ a piece and the chinese ones failled in a short time.

 

[Okie]

About the electronic modules stuff now days. Lots of China clones. Not the real stuff but the full price.

Even the China boxes, prices and labeling makes you think it's the real deal.

 

[PogoInTheWoods]

Thought they were all Chinese these days. And aren't the Stens, Oregon, Nova ll, and the Mega Fire essentially all the same module?

And what about the canister condensers as viable substitutes? They seem to last quite a bit longer than the film caps and are in most of my running Macs as original parts. I've run across two bad ones in my Mac experience and just replaced them with another old Mac condenser..., which are everywhere and almost a universal part across the Macs. MiniMac's are always good for a condenser if nothing else, though I also happen to like the MiniMac for what it is.

Again, thanks for all the input.

 

[Okie]

Yep, the metal canister types is what I was referring too in my above post about solder attaching a ground wire onto the metal case of the cap if needed because the cap is not grounded by it's mounting or mounted onto plastic and needs the ground wire when using or testing a subbed donor cap.


Most all condensers for points ignition systems are close enough in UF and voltage value but physical size and mounting arrangements of the cap is usually the most problem when not using a OEM replacement even when locating the cap externally or outside the flywheel.

Got to watch the price also on condensers, I've seen them priced from like $125 to $4 and some of them VINTAGE McCulloch and Onan condensers, just to mention couple are taking advantage of the word VINTAGE to jack up their prices for a little measley condenser.

 

[Okie]

Thought they were all Chinese these days. And aren't the Stens, Oregon, Nova ll, and the Mega Fire essentially all the same module?

And what about the canister condensers as viable substitutes? They seem to last quite a bit longer than the film caps and are in most of my running Macs as original parts. I've run across two bad ones in my Mac experience and just replaced them with another old Mac condenser..., which are everywhere and almost a universal part across the Macs. MiniMac's are always good for a condenser if nothing else, though I also happen to like the MiniMac for what it is.

Again, thanks for all the input.

You asked are they all the same and if all are made in China.
That is a problem now days, do not really know if you are getting the real deal or a China clone. Donald Trump is going to get them Chinamen under control and give them some of this.

I experimented with handful of the NOVA II, type chips that can be reversed for pos or neg ignition. Some are neg only. Timing on saws would usually change and some of the chips that were suppose to be identical required opposite polarity to get a run on the same engine and some of the identical chips would cause the engine to have different timing. I had bad experiences with the Nova II's due to short life span also when they would run the chainsaw. This differences engine performance with the exact same part number chips told me that the QC (Quality Control) of the electronics left lots to be desired. I contacted the vendor that was selling the Nove II chips and they refunded my money and indicated they were quitting selling them due to complaints.
Some of the guys installing the electronic chips onto chainsaws indicated they had to remove the flywheel key and rotate the flywheel to get the engine to run properly. (re-install the flywheel without using the key)
I just went back to the old points/ignition and some of those on my saws were 25 years old and no problems.

Main reason I tried the electronic chips is in theory they sounded great, did not even have to remove the flywheel to install, just cut the wire coming from under the flywheel (leaving the points and condenser in place going to the magneto and install the chip and when the chip failed all I had to do was re-splice the cut wire to go back to the points ign and not have to pull flywheel. The old McCulloch 140-1-50 and 250 model engines was what I was testing. Longest run time I ever got was 3 days before failure with good heat sinking and good air cooling flow across the chips and no chip vibration.
I have had good luck with the Briggs and Stratton solid state magnetos that replace the points and condenser on their 3.5-10 hp Horiz shaft engines. (it's a complete magneto coil with the solid state ckt built into the magneto and designed by Briggs, cost about $30) China clones these also.

 

[PogoInTheWoods]

My favorite area Stihl dealer made good on the offer for an Oregon module to replace the last failed OEM condenser today. Saw fires right up and runs great. No timing issues, messing with flywheel position, or polarity weirdness. Mounting was sort of a pain but doable without resorting to RTV or drilling new holes anywhere except in a small rednecked bracket. Also found out that the replacement caps being provided by Stihl are currently being produced and not old stock..., at least not 40 year old stock. They're a polymer type vs. the older metal ones. Evidently a bad run of the newer devices. He's getting warranty replacement credit for the failed ones and not ordering any more in favor of converting to the Oregon device for any new condenser failures. Here's the mounting arrangement fwiw. The only issue with the location is that it impedes air flow from the flywheel to the cylinder (to a certain extent). Probably not enough to warrant much concern, but enough to be aware of. The flipside is it gets plenty of air flow. And also fwiw, a MiniMac condenser will bolt right on to the top coil screw with plenty of clearance and would be a very simple butt splice to install if you wanted to try one with the points setup. Didn't take the time to try that, but it would be much easier than converting to a module (if it actually works).

A WIMA cap could be snuck in there almost anywhere with a dab of RTV..., if they were readily available. They do list a gazillion caps on their website. Should be something close to this one somewhere in their listings. I don't know enough film cap technical terminology to effectively search their site.



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