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Trolltide
Randy "Mastermind" does all my port work and does a great job. Stumpy and Brad also turn out some mean looking ported saws.
Stihl 441cm verse 460
- Thread starter thehotrodpig
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homelitejim
Full of Scrap
The 441 has been out since 2006, I guess the M-tronic version has been out for 2 years, must take a full decade for a saw to prove itself. I personally have the standard 441 and it is a great saw, I can't comment on the 460 as I do not have one.
Stihlman441
Addicted to ArboristSite
My 2 cents werth.
Depends on what you wont from a saw and how much you use it or make a living with it.
I have both and run them offen,stock,muff modded,ported.
In my case i will use the saw for 4 to 5 hrs per day and sometimes days on end.
They both respond very well to muff modds and porting.
So this is what i like about the 441RCM (wrap model) over the 460
Heaps better AV (wrap model has stiffer springs than standard)
Heaps better filter system
Easy start system
No tune,pick it up and use it doesnt matter about fuel,weather ect
Better on fuel even when ported (chain oil cap 360cc same as a 660)
Less fumes
Very good torque over a larger rev range
This is interesting from the US Stihl site all R (wrap models)
Specifications MS 441 R C-M MS 460 R MS 660 R
DISPLACEMENT 70.7 cc (4.3 cu. in.) 76.5 cc (4.7 cu. in.) 91.6 cc (5.6 cu. in.)
ENGINE POWER 4.2 kW (5.6 bhp) 4.5 kW (6.0 bhp) 5.2 kW (7.0 bhp)
POWERHEAD WEIGHT 6.6 kg (14.6 lbs.) 6.9 kg (15.2 lbs.) 7.6kg (16.8 lbs.)
FUEL CAPACITY 725 cc (24.5 oz.) 800 cc (27.1 oz.) 825 cc (27.9 oz.)
CHAIN OIL CAPACITY 360 cc (12.2 oz.) 325 cc (11.0 oz.) 360 cc (12.2 oz.)
Depends on what you wont from a saw and how much you use it or make a living with it.
I have both and run them offen,stock,muff modded,ported.
In my case i will use the saw for 4 to 5 hrs per day and sometimes days on end.
They both respond very well to muff modds and porting.
So this is what i like about the 441RCM (wrap model) over the 460
Heaps better AV (wrap model has stiffer springs than standard)
Heaps better filter system
Easy start system
No tune,pick it up and use it doesnt matter about fuel,weather ect
Better on fuel even when ported (chain oil cap 360cc same as a 660)
Less fumes
Very good torque over a larger rev range
This is interesting from the US Stihl site all R (wrap models)
Specifications MS 441 R C-M MS 460 R MS 660 R
DISPLACEMENT 70.7 cc (4.3 cu. in.) 76.5 cc (4.7 cu. in.) 91.6 cc (5.6 cu. in.)
ENGINE POWER 4.2 kW (5.6 bhp) 4.5 kW (6.0 bhp) 5.2 kW (7.0 bhp)
POWERHEAD WEIGHT 6.6 kg (14.6 lbs.) 6.9 kg (15.2 lbs.) 7.6kg (16.8 lbs.)
FUEL CAPACITY 725 cc (24.5 oz.) 800 cc (27.1 oz.) 825 cc (27.9 oz.)
CHAIN OIL CAPACITY 360 cc (12.2 oz.) 325 cc (11.0 oz.) 360 cc (12.2 oz.)
saw dog
ArboristSite Operative
Hi All
I agree as previously stated the new 441 do sip the fuel compaired to the 460s but that is where the favorable comparson stops. I have a few of the new 441s and when the men grab the saws out of the trailer to start the days work the 460Rs are the saws they grab leaving the 441s sit. There is reason for this when falling and bucking large hard wood there are times when they need
the power and control that the 460s have over the 441s. The small amount of time it takes to load the springs on a 441 can be costly if you are in a situation where you need to power through the cut to prevent pulling fiber on a large white oak or you need to turn the tree in the fall to protect the canopy of an ajacent tree. That is what we have found to be true anyway.
Safe cutting all
I agree as previously stated the new 441 do sip the fuel compaired to the 460s but that is where the favorable comparson stops. I have a few of the new 441s and when the men grab the saws out of the trailer to start the days work the 460Rs are the saws they grab leaving the 441s sit. There is reason for this when falling and bucking large hard wood there are times when they need
the power and control that the 460s have over the 441s. The small amount of time it takes to load the springs on a 441 can be costly if you are in a situation where you need to power through the cut to prevent pulling fiber on a large white oak or you need to turn the tree in the fall to protect the canopy of an ajacent tree. That is what we have found to be true anyway.
Safe cutting all
john inglis
ArboristSite Operative
go to saw
i have not used 441 cm but have tried nearly every other saw suitable for every day use and i keep picking up the 460 , there is a 372 , 394 husky . a 2094 jonny , a sweeet 660 , a big bore makita 6401 conversion and my pm 850 mcculloch that has been my favourite for over 30 years( but parts scarcity make me careful with it as i absolutely love it) .the 460 more than any other saw does it all , light enough to limb, powerful enough to finish a decent hardwood log and i mean old dead eucalypt that throws sparks in any low light . its a good go to saw.
i have not used 441 cm but have tried nearly every other saw suitable for every day use and i keep picking up the 460 , there is a 372 , 394 husky . a 2094 jonny , a sweeet 660 , a big bore makita 6401 conversion and my pm 850 mcculloch that has been my favourite for over 30 years( but parts scarcity make me careful with it as i absolutely love it) .the 460 more than any other saw does it all , light enough to limb, powerful enough to finish a decent hardwood log and i mean old dead eucalypt that throws sparks in any low light . its a good go to saw.
Graham99
ArboristSite Operative
Ms441cm
Hi there,
Based upon my recent experiences I can strongly reccomend the MS441CM, and the big seller to me is the m tronic. I think you'll level peg on the horsepower after a muff mod, and if you let one of the builders on this forum at it then you'll be happy.
I have just the muffler mod, and I'm very happy. Couldnt hold the thing back, and chopped up a lot of wood before I ran out of gas.
Go the MS441CM. Buy the wrap version.
Graham
Hi there,
Based upon my recent experiences I can strongly reccomend the MS441CM, and the big seller to me is the m tronic. I think you'll level peg on the horsepower after a muff mod, and if you let one of the builders on this forum at it then you'll be happy.
I have just the muffler mod, and I'm very happy. Couldnt hold the thing back, and chopped up a lot of wood before I ran out of gas.
Go the MS441CM. Buy the wrap version.
Graham
SawTroll
Information Collector
Except that the 441 in reality is a little heavier, and the weight spec of the 460 went up a little when the 441 came out....
For me, and it’s been several years since I’ve used an 046, if the choices were the standard 441 and the 460… I’d pick the 460 in a heartbeat, there just ain’t any replacement for displacement and never will be (I know someone will argue, but oh well… whatever).
If the choices are the 441 M-Tronic and the 460, I’d still pick the 460 because I have a natural mistrust of electronic do-dads and gadgetry… especially over the long-haul. If you’re comfortable with an electronic device controlling the fuel mixture of a two-cycle engine, you really have a need (or want) for a bit better anti-vibe, and fuel consumption is something you worry about… by all means get the 441, I’m sure it’s a great saw.
As for me, if someone handed me a free new-in-the-box 441 M-Tronic, I wouldn’t even open the box… I’d sell it, or trade first.
If the choices are the 441 M-Tronic and the 460, I’d still pick the 460 because I have a natural mistrust of electronic do-dads and gadgetry… especially over the long-haul. If you’re comfortable with an electronic device controlling the fuel mixture of a two-cycle engine, you really have a need (or want) for a bit better anti-vibe, and fuel consumption is something you worry about… by all means get the 441, I’m sure it’s a great saw.
As for me, if someone handed me a free new-in-the-box 441 M-Tronic, I wouldn’t even open the box… I’d sell it, or trade first.
Officer's Match
Addicted to ArboristSite
I have both a 460 and a 441C-M, and I MUCH prefer the 441C-M. Mine is a R (wrap) model with stiffer AV springs, and it is very nimble to run - no different at all than the 460 other than no tingling hands. Good thing too, 'cause it goes a LONG time before refuel (break). If you look at the spec's, you'll see the fuel tank is a bit smaller on the 441 and the oil tank a bit bigger - draw your own conclusions there.
Now, my comparison isn't really fair in that my 441 is ported and my 460 is stock, but I'll tell you that my 441 has both more power and a broader powerband than my 460. But even if power output was identical, I'd surely prefer the 441 for it's comfort and convenience. Super smooth to run, and I never have to lift a (orange handled) finger to deal with elevation, temperature, humidity, filter condition (yeah right, it takes FOREVER to get dirty), bar length, chain condition, type of operator (finesse to gorilla), fuel/mix variations, phase of the moon, jaw position or bologna expiration date. Oh, and it's the easiest manually starting internal combustion engine I've ever seen BAR NONE. I seldom set it down idling 'cause I grin every time I yank its cord.
Now, my comparison isn't really fair in that my 441 is ported and my 460 is stock, but I'll tell you that my 441 has both more power and a broader powerband than my 460. But even if power output was identical, I'd surely prefer the 441 for it's comfort and convenience. Super smooth to run, and I never have to lift a (orange handled) finger to deal with elevation, temperature, humidity, filter condition (yeah right, it takes FOREVER to get dirty), bar length, chain condition, type of operator (finesse to gorilla), fuel/mix variations, phase of the moon, jaw position or bologna expiration date. Oh, and it's the easiest manually starting internal combustion engine I've ever seen BAR NONE. I seldom set it down idling 'cause I grin every time I yank its cord.
homelitejim
Full of Scrap
I fell this 70 foot white fir from the down hill side of the road against the lean, I do not get this talk of loading the springs on the AV maybe the difference is in the wood, I put the bar and chain on the wood and pull the trigger and it cuts. I was on a pretty good angle and made my cuts at about shoulder height, with one very bad escape route so no time to be waiting for spring loading, which I did not and the tree fell right where I wanted it. My boy did not get video of me cutting it down but he did get me cutting it out of the road.
[video=youtube;SSDOgwDhjQY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSDOgwDhjQY&feature=youtu.be[/video]
This is a standard 441 with a 25 inch bar and chain.
[video=youtube;SSDOgwDhjQY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSDOgwDhjQY&feature=youtu.be[/video]
This is a standard 441 with a 25 inch bar and chain.
thehotrodpig
ArboristSite Lurker
Thank you to all the guys that have posted.
You guys have given me some great arguments both ways. So much so it am not sure if the decision is any easier.:bang:
The 441cm sounds like it has some nice features but the old tried and true 460 is well proven.
For those that have the 441cm, have you heard of or have you had any issues with the new technology failing or causing other issues? I would assume they might be harder to diagnose problems. Do the stihl dealers groan when they come in for repair? The comparison sounds a little like the old carb vs fuel injection debates.
Though I have no problem embracing new technology I tend to have a wait and see attitude when it comes to upgrading something that worked well in the first place.
You guys have given me some great arguments both ways. So much so it am not sure if the decision is any easier.:bang:
The 441cm sounds like it has some nice features but the old tried and true 460 is well proven.
For those that have the 441cm, have you heard of or have you had any issues with the new technology failing or causing other issues? I would assume they might be harder to diagnose problems. Do the stihl dealers groan when they come in for repair? The comparison sounds a little like the old carb vs fuel injection debates.
Though I have no problem embracing new technology I tend to have a wait and see attitude when it comes to upgrading something that worked well in the first place.
Officer's Match
Addicted to ArboristSite
Just the opposite. I have heard of a logger in Pennsylvania that noticed his M-Tronic was suckin' fuel like his buddy's 660. Got home, took covers off and saw a tear in the manifold between the carb and cylinder. Evidently the computer dumped enough fuel to prevent a lean seize that might have normally occurred.
TonyRumore
ArboristSite Guru
I would just keep the 046 and spend the spare coin on more beer.
Tony
Tony
StihlyinEly
Addicted to ArboristSite
:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:
Seriously, is the antivibe on the 460 any better than the 046? There aren't much in the way of differences between the 046 and 460.
thehotrodpig
ArboristSite Lurker
The 046 is on its last leg, might not be worth repairing. Either way I will be getting another saw.
Officer's Match
Addicted to ArboristSite
I get CAD just as much as the next guy (unless he has more money which is likely) but I'd would honestly think hard about sending the 046 to Brad, Mastermind, Stumpy or one of the other saw builders around here. If it runs at all, it would likely be worth a rebuild and porting whilst at it.
thehotrodpig
ArboristSite Lurker
That is exactly what I am thinking about doing. In the mean time I think I have about decided on getting the 441cm.
I am confused about the r model though. I realize it has to do with the handle wrap which I am a bit indifferent about but some seem to suggest it has a bigger oil pump. Is this true on the 441r Cm or is this something they only do on the 460r? The reason I ask is I read that some folks suggest the larger oil pump if you want to run a longer bar. I plan on using at least a 25" and possibly a 28".
I guess is what I am asking is there anything else different between the r and non r besides the handle? I dont see any difference on the stihl site.
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Officer's Match
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yes, high output chain oiler plus stiffer av springs. I love the feel of mine ("R" model). Also indifferent about the wrap bar initially, but I've grown to really like it. Also, the R comes with dual (big) dawgs and the wider clutch cover. It's a no-brainer IMHO.
thehotrodpig
ArboristSite Lurker
Huh, they sure don't outline that very well on their site. Was kinda hoping they were the same, local shop has a non r in stock. Guess I will have to order the r.
