Stump Grinder justification

[ROPECLIMBER]

I used to try to stack the jobs and rent one, but found I was losing work to the bigger guys that could be in and out in same day
I bought a used Carlton 2500-4 I love the hyd toung, and try to get 4.75 an inch on grean soft wood and 5.25 on aged soft and green hard wood, trying to explain the root flare "where the natural grade starts the flare" is a pain,when quoting over the phone. I also charge extra 25-35 for final cut if over 4 inches, on stumps I dindt cut down the tree. I dont use the machine enough to justify a new one but when I need it, it comes in handy, right now it is on the trailer in the garage taking up space as the last time I used it I was doing a favor for my niebor and broke the cutter wheel shaft, and havent fixed it yet about a 500 fix just in parts, I would look for a Carlton 4012 the replacement to mine, as it still has the hyd toungh but has dual direct drive hyd self prepelled motors the 2500-4 is one straight axle and a chain drive and it had been jerry rigged and I had to re work that as it failed on a hill and that wasn't fun free wheeling down a HILL running next to a 1500 pound machine also the 2500-4 is hard to steer because of the soap box style whole axle steering, and the tire fight caused by the solid axle drive
If I keep mine I have thought about finding a hro static drive out of a garden tractor, and putting a 2cyl diesel on it, would love to have a 4012 with the 33 hp kubota, and the revolution cutter wheel, would probably go out of my way to sell stumps if I had that.
Paul

PS probably just trying to sell myself on redoing mine or up grading but on a lot of small to medium removals I would grind it while the helper loaded all the heavys on the little d350 dump truck that I use to pull the stump grinder and on the bigger removals i could go back the next day and he could load the heavys while I ground it this way all I have in the chip truck is mulch so i dont pay a dump except on the little dump,

 

[husabud]

My local rental is$300 /day including ins. Which I have needed.they run green teeth on the 252s so I bought a set of green teeth to use when I have their machine. It takes 8-10 min to swap them out and I know that they are always sharp. Swap them back before you return it and your day is that much easier. I stack as many as I can into a day. This time of year suck though.

 

[OLD MAN GRINDER]

How much more productive would a 352 be?

It should be more productive due to the inc engine size, but cost is a lot more..
I am 70 if i thought i was going to do this at least 5 more years i would invest
in a new 372, but i'm only dreamin LOL...

Bob..

 

[mikewhite85]

I used to sub my stumps to a good stump guy. It was great for the big stumps but I hated having him come out for all the smaller (less that 25") ones. I got an Alpine Magnum to do the small ones and that machine blew my away. I bought a used one from Keith at alpine machine..... got it for like 3500. Once you get the hang of that thing it is awesome. The first day with it I figured I would try to see what it was made of... me and my groundman ground two 40"+ walnut stumps, two 40" plus pondo pines, and a 50"+ elm stump with big surface roots. My groundie loves that thing too, says his ideal day would be firing it up at nine and turning it off at five.

I price stumps at 6-8 an inch with the magnum, on small or hard to access stumps. Most stumps go for four or so an inch, I figure they're paying for the added convenience. I once made 20 an inch with it, ground 30" a poplar stump over 3 feet down where they built a raised patio around it and planted a new tree there.... couldn't have done that with anything other than the magnum.

I recently bought a stump slayer (mini skid attached 30HP grinder) from scott (arborpro). I only got it cuz I just did a big project for a mobile home park where I removed 20 large cottonwoods and siberian elms..... that grinder has already paid for itself.

I am really happy to have the new grinder but the Alpine magnum is priceless and I will never own a tree service and not have one.

I have an alpine too with the TS760 engine. Wonderful machine that paid for itself fast. Yesterday we took out a pine on a hill and over some narrow brick steps. Would have never gotten anything else up there. I didn't even think about it at the estimate! Lots of hills in Hollywood so I use the alpine a lot.

I will say I hate the teeth though. I have 10+ sets of dull teeth at the moment! When they are sharp that little machine cuts like a beast.

 

[superjunior]

I have an alpine too with the TS760 engine. Wonderful machine that paid for itself fast. Yesterday we took out a pine on a hill and over some narrow brick steps. Would have never gotten anything else up there. I didn't even think about it at the estimate! Lots of hills in Hollywood so I use the alpine a lot.

I will say I hate the teeth though. I have 10+ sets of dull teeth at the moment! When they are sharp that little machine cuts like a beast.

can you have them re-tipped? I got a sharpening place close by that will cut off the cutting tip of the tooth and reweld a new carbide tip on. They don't recommend doing this with higher horsepower machines but it works well with the smaller ones. cost about half the price of a new tooth

 

[imagineero]

I used to sub out all my stumps but had trouble getting good sub contractors. Nobody wanted to come bid, so I would estimate it myself and add some, then either make a little or lose a little depending on what the guy charged me. Most guys start ok, but get worse over time. I dont talk them down on price, just let them go do it and charge what they want, but stump grinding wears your soul down. In the end they would fail to turn up, turn up late or do poor work, fail to clean up etc. The biggest issue is damage and liability. Most stump grinders in aus wont cover damage, they grind to 12" and pipes/wiring are meant to be below that level. When your grinder hits something and wont pay, the customer will be after you. I dont make a profit off stump grinding so for me that's a liability. Normal tree insurance does not cover stump grinding - that's classed as excavation.

I bought a 20hp self propelled all hydraulic last year brand new for $18k. I've put about 50 hours on it in 6 months. I hate doing stumps. Customers always want more ground out than you agree to. Getting to know species and understand the amount of root flair to expect and knowing how hard different species are to grind takes time.

The biggest issue is still damage and liability. In aus, many services are underground - water, gas, electricity, cable, phone, sewerage. There is no information available on where the services are located on private property, and no standards governing them. Plans are available for main services and public land locations. In aus, if you get the plans (free) and something isn't shown and you hit it, you dont have to pay for it. Most service providers will send a rep to site for free to identify their assets if you are working near them. On private property the best you can do is look and guess. Last year I hit 2 water pipes, a phone line, an underground PVC stormwater and a large bundled armored main phone line. That last one would have been worth many thousands to repair but luckily for me there was no charge as it was redundant and not shown on plans.

I buzz small stumps (under 12") for free and win a lot of tree work that way. Over 12" it's a minimum $50 per stump. up to about 20" I can make out ok for $80/stump so long as they dont want it ground more than 12" deep and no root chasing. My machine gets into very tight spaces, it's only about 30" wide and can be driven up stairs. I've driven it through apartments to get out the back a few times. It weighs about 500lbs so you wont be picking it up but it can be driven most places. Over 20" stumps start getting into $200+. Remember that a stump twice the diameter will have 4x the wood in it (diameter wise) but may take as much as 6-10x as long to do once you factor in flair. Charging by the inch is a quick way to get into trouble. I don't do stumps as a separate service. I only grind my own stumps. There is no money in stumps. Did I mention I hate doing stumps?

I stil sub out my big stumps. They just aren't economical to do with a small machine, and it's easier to get a guy interested in grinding a big stump than a small one. Guys with big 90hp+ tracked machines with auto swing can take out a 6' stump in 15 minutes. I'd be there for about 6 hours.

The operating cost of a small stump grinder is about $30~$35/hour including fuel, teeth and wear on the machine. Engine wear is one of the biggest costs, you dont get a lot of hours out of an engine and they are pricey.

I bought a stump grinder to make money on tree work. To me, it's a money losing prospect just like blowers, rakes, chipping etc. But you do it because it wins you work. I lose money on grinding, but I make money on trees.

Shaun

 

[Kottonwood]

can you have them re-tipped? I got a sharpening place close by that will cut off the cutting tip of the tooth and reweld a new carbide tip on. They don't recommend doing this with higher horsepower machines but it works well with the smaller ones. cost about half the price of a new tooth

Yep, the weak link in that machine is definitely the teeth. It really isn't that big of a deal though, they take about fifteen minutes to change out. I have a green wheel on my bench grinder and put two-three edges on em before I toss em out. They only cost 50 bucks a set and I buy five at a time. I get by only buying about 5-10 sets a year.... not to bad of a cost for something that makes me BANK! That alpine magnum is a money maker and hassle saver without question. I love it when customers tell me "well I know the stump can't be ground because all the other services told me that" then I tell em "actually it can be ground and it'll be 8 bucks an inch" .... job sold.

I never bother getting them retipped cuz they are only fifty a set.... figure it is worth it to just buy new. If you don't hit rocks (which it is easy to dodge em with the magnum) the carbide won't break off and you can put a few edges on it.

 

[superjunior]

Yep, the weak link in that machine is definitely the teeth. It really isn't that big of a deal though, they take about fifteen minutes to change out. I have a green wheel on my bench grinder and put two-three edges on em before I toss em out. They only cost 50 bucks a set and I buy five at a time. I get by only buying about 5-10 sets a year.... not to bad of a cost for something that makes me BANK! That alpine magnum is a money maker and hassle saver without question. I love it when customers tell me "well I know the stump can't be ground because all the other services told me that" then I tell em "actually it can be ground and it'll be 8 bucks an inch" .... job sold.

I never bother getting them retipped cuz they are only fifty a set.... figure it is worth it to just buy new. If you don't hit rocks (which it is easy to dodge em with the magnum) the carbide won't break off and you can put a few edges on it.

nice! I can sure see why that alpine mag would be a great grinder to have around. We had to crane our 1625 once to get it up on a raised wall bed. Would have been impossible if we didn't have crane access

 

[Juicemang]

I started out stacking the stumps and trying to rent once a month. It cost $250 here for a bandit 2100. Never made much money like that, grinder was too slow, going back to jobs you have already done sucks. Tried subbing for a year but that sucks for all the reasons stated already. 2 years ago I bought a used bandit 2100 with small diesel on it. Its hard to make a decent hourly rate only anything other then small stumps. Was slowing me down on bigger tree jobs. My solution was to trade in the 2100 last year and buy a carlton 7015 new. To date its my most expensive piece of equipment. I will probably break even on stumps for the next three years, but then I own it. When I bought it, the idea was not to make a killing on stumps, just get rid of the stump head aches. 12" stumps take 1 min to grind, 24" about 5 mins, 36" about 15. The payment sucks, but I don't have to worry about stumps as long as I have this grinder.

 

[swyman]

Thanks for all the great info guys, there has been some great advice and things to look for. I will be getting one for sure this season and am kind of open as to self propelled or pull. Will probably end up with a pull but kind of like the 352. I am very pro diesel, would buy a gasser but would have to be very clean. Sounds like they are all pretty good and the teeth is where its at. Will post some pics when I get one.

 

[tree md]

I used to sub out all my stumps but had trouble getting good sub contractors. Nobody wanted to come bid, so I would estimate it myself and add some, then either make a little or lose a little depending on what the guy charged me. Most guys start ok, but get worse over time. I dont talk them down on price, just let them go do it and charge what they want, but stump grinding wears your soul down. In the end they would fail to turn up, turn up late or do poor work, fail to clean up etc. The biggest issue is damage and liability. Most stump grinders in aus wont cover damage, they grind to 12" and pipes/wiring are meant to be below that level. When your grinder hits something and wont pay, the customer will be after you. I dont make a profit off stump grinding so for me that's a liability. Normal tree insurance does not cover stump grinding - that's classed as excavation.

I bought a 20hp self propelled all hydraulic last year brand new for $18k. I've put about 50 hours on it in 6 months. I hate doing stumps. Customers always want more ground out than you agree to. Getting to know species and understand the amount of root flair to expect and knowing how hard different species are to grind takes time.

The biggest issue is still damage and liability. In aus, many services are underground - water, gas, electricity, cable, phone, sewerage. There is no information available on where the services are located on private property, and no standards governing them. Plans are available for main services and public land locations. In aus, if you get the plans (free) and something isn't shown and you hit it, you dont have to pay for it. Most service providers will send a rep to site for free to identify their assets if you are working near them. On private property the best you can do is look and guess. Last year I hit 2 water pipes, a phone line, an underground PVC stormwater and a large bundled armored main phone line. That last one would have been worth many thousands to repair but luckily for me there was no charge as it was redundant and not shown on plans.

I buzz small stumps (under 12") for free and win a lot of tree work that way. Over 12" it's a minimum $50 per stump. up to about 20" I can make out ok for $80/stump so long as they dont want it ground more than 12" deep and no root chasing. My machine gets into very tight spaces, it's only about 30" wide and can be driven up stairs. I've driven it through apartments to get out the back a few times. It weighs about 500lbs so you wont be picking it up but it can be driven most places. Over 20" stumps start getting into $200+. Remember that a stump twice the diameter will have 4x the wood in it (diameter wise) but may take as much as 6-10x as long to do once you factor in flair. Charging by the inch is a quick way to get into trouble. I don't do stumps as a separate service. I only grind my own stumps. There is no money in stumps. Did I mention I hate doing stumps?

I stil sub out my big stumps. They just aren't economical to do with a small machine, and it's easier to get a guy interested in grinding a big stump than a small one. Guys with big 90hp+ tracked machines with auto swing can take out a 6' stump in 15 minutes. I'd be there for about 6 hours.

The operating cost of a small stump grinder is about $30~$35/hour including fuel, teeth and wear on the machine. Engine wear is one of the biggest costs, you dont get a lot of hours out of an engine and they are pricey.

I bought a stump grinder to make money on tree work. To me, it's a money losing prospect just like blowers, rakes, chipping etc. But you do it because it wins you work. I lose money on grinding, but I make money on trees.

Shaun

Ditto.

I used to stack up stumps, rent a grinder and do them all in a day or two. I found that was the most economical way to do them at that time. Then I had a couple of stump services call me looking to contract my stumps and finally ended up with a good contractor (and now friend). I have had to bid large stump projects but never win them because I need to make at least as much money for the time invested as I would doing trees. There is always a stumper who is willing to do them cheaper. Doing storm work in Alabama I had 2 separate contractors with large machines following me doing my stumps. They had a lot of money (big money) invested in their equipment and did not make nearly what I do taking trees off of houses, storm damage/hazard mitigation. That's where it's at for me. When I am rocking I have no time for grinding stumps. I let the guys who are setup to specialize in that handle what I leave in my wake.

Now, as for working in my home territory, I do have a stump grinder. It's a 20 HP self propelled walk behind, probably a lot similar to Shaun's. I bought it from a landscaper who was down on his luck for $200 about 2 years ago. I have maybe put $150-$200 into it. At the most I have got $500 into it and made that on the first job I did with it. I did 10 stumps in 2 hours today and made that. I bought it to be a complete service and help me to win bids (and really for $200 it was a no brainer). It is nice to be able to do my own stumps. If I get a particularly large stump I still have my contractor that I can call but really, I have not found one that I cannot grind myself if I didn't want to. I've got to admit it's nice to be able to make money with it when trees are slow. In the past week I have done 9 trees and 39 stumps so you can see the majority of my work in the past week has been stumps. I cannot remember how many stumps I did the week before but I know it was over 30. My little grinder will go anywhere and I can knock some stumps out quick with it when I have good teeth on there. It is a headache though as I always seem to be working on it but it works for me and makes me money so it's worth it to me.

 

[BigWill1985]

We picked up a Vermeer 206 a few weeks back. It was a city owned unit, and had only 27 hours of use on it. Has a 20hp Kohler 2cyl motor, and is self propelled. It also pivots in the center, but you have to sweep manually. We got this unit since it is small enough to fit through most walk-through gates, and a majority of our business is in tight spaces. We got it for $2900, but had to drive ~6 hours one way to pick it up in New Jersey.

We bought it for the same reason as many people have already said. We wanted to be a full service tree company. My partner tries to quote stumps at $3/inch, but I tend to go a tad higher (closer to $4/inch). I just hate losing money running our machine, especially with the risk of hitting metal in stumps (fenceposts, nails, etc...) or hitting concrete from where a fence or driveway/sidewalk used to be. Gets really old changing out teeth when you aren't getting paid for it.

But, I will say that we have won 2 large, well paying jobs solely because we have the stump grinder. It will have paid for itself in the first month of ownership. Then, if we choose to, we can always well it later and upgrade if needed. These things don't really lose value as long as they are well cared for.

~Will Courtier~

 

[tree md]

The biggest issue is still damage and liability. In aus, many services are underground - water, gas, electricity, cable, phone, sewerage. There is no information available on where the services are located on private property, and no standards governing them. Plans are available for main services and public land locations. In aus, if you get the plans (free) and something isn't shown and you hit it, you dont have to pay for it. Most service providers will send a rep to site for free to identify their assets if you are working near them. On private property the best you can do is look and guess. Last year I hit 2 water pipes, a phone line, an underground PVC stormwater and a large bundled armored main phone line. That last one would have been worth many thousands to repair but luckily for me there was no charge as it was redundant and not shown on plans.

Shaun

Shaun. I like to CMA in a contract on stumps. I will assume liability if I break a window with a rock or something like that but I do not want to be assuming liability for underground service.

I have my contract worded as such:

Name of your company will coordinate a mark out of public utilities on-site, however, the site owner must establish all non-public utilities. Name of your company assumes no responsibility for the location of or damage to underground utilities not clearly marked by the site owner prior to commencement of site services.

 

[imagineero]

Shaun. I like to CMA in a contract on stumps. I will assume liability if I break a window with a rock or something like that but I do not want to be assuming liability for underground service.

I have my contract worded as such:

Name of your company will coordinate a mark out of public utilities on-site, however, the site owner must establish all non-public utilities. Name of your company assumes no responsibility for the location of or damage to underground utilities not clearly marked by the site owner prior to commencement of site services.

That's a standard contract wording for all stump grinders in aus, and as I mentioned in my post most guys here will grind only the top 12" and play pass the buck to the related contractor for any damage. I hope you get paid up front in cash if you use this kind of contract, and that the customer has no friends or neighbours you would potentially like to work for. If you have done the tree and the stump and are owed a few thousand dollars, then geting payment and still keeping the customer happy with their out of pocket costs and lack of services (water, electricity, cable etc) can be problematic. I find it still works out better for me in the long term to simply repair the damage at my cost. I'm never short on work even in tough times when a lot of competitors are sitting round drinking coffee.

I've considered adding some kind of 'liability charge' for stump grinding, still tossing around the wording and pricing, but I think it would be much like the damage waiver options when hiring vehicles or equipment which is something most people are familiar with. It would be something along the lines of "I will grind the stump to a depth of 12" for a cost of (eg) $200 with you assuming liability for any damage to pipes, cables or services located underground. Alternatively for an extra $35 a damage waiver is available which means we will assume liability for any damage and repair services promptly".

I figure a lot of customers would spring the extre few dollars, maybe about 15~20% of the cost of the stump from what I'm guessing. A strategy like this would let me compete on a fair basis with market pricing and make it plain to customers what they are getting for their money from myself and from others. Over time, you put the funds in an account and they would end up being more than the cost of the damage done, so eventually you'd even make a profit on it. It's an added service, would cost me less than getting excavation insurance (and then having to pay the deductable) and I figure if folks elect to do without then they wont feel so badly towards you. I think these sort of things need to be explained clearly up front along with the other things about stump grinding most folks dont know; We only grind 12", root chasing not included unless extra paid, spoil not removed from site, you wont be able to plant another tree on top, you will need to remove the spoil yourself to plant grass.

As an aside, anybody removing spoil? Nobody in aus does and I sometimes wonder if there's a market for it. No idea how to price it. Seems more a gardener/landscaper area along with topsoiling and turfing/reseeding.
Shaun

 

[tree md]

In all honesty, I have never had to enforce my contract. I have only hit 2 underground lines ever. One was a telephone line where the customer, myself and my groundy who was grinding the stump were observing. The customer knew the phone line was there. My groundy stopped and said that's as close as I dare go (line was visible). The customer told him to go deeper and he hit the line. No way I was assuming liability for that and was not expected to. The only other time is when I hit an old iron pipe which had been a water line or something at one point but was no longer in service. Besides breaking a grinder tooth (and a $280 sliding glass door) there was no damage... Still that was an expensive stump to grind. I think I paid $30 to grind that one.

On the debris removal. Yes, I will remove the grindings, back fill and seed on a time and materials fee basis. That is covered in my contract as well.

 

[arbor pro]

Thanks for all the great info guys, there has been some great advice and things to look for. I will be getting one for sure this season and am kind of open as to self propelled or pull. Will probably end up with a pull but kind of like the 352. I am very pro diesel, would buy a gasser but would have to be very clean. Sounds like they are all pretty good and the teeth is where its at. Will post some pics when I get one.

heads up - I was looking to upgrade from a sc252 to a 352 and learned that the diahatsu diesel is a timebomb just waiting to blow up - literally. 500 hrs and expect to get a new engine. Most guys just put a 30 or 35hp engine on their 252s. that's what I'm planning to do now. might buy a rayco 1635 trac machine next year once there are a few used ones on the market so i can find out how well they're performing.

AP

 

[swyman]

heads up - I was looking to upgrade from a sc252 to a 352 and learned that the diahatsu diesel is a timebomb just waiting to blow up - literally. 500 hrs and expect to get a new engine. Most guys just put a 30 or 35hp engine on their 252s. that's what I'm planning to do now. might buy a rayco 1635 trac machine next year once there are a few used ones on the market so i can find out how well they're performing.

AP

Good info AP, I was/am really considering a 352. Watched some youtube clips in operation and seem to have decent power. Still torn on a pull behind though:confuse:

 

[arbor pro]

Good info AP, I was/am really considering a 352. Watched some youtube clips in operation and seem to have decent power. Still torn on a pull behind though:confuse:

I've been grinding for 7 years with a vermeer 252. Had a 665a with 65hp duetz for 2 years and ended up selling it because I used the 252 most of the time. Mostly because I hauled the 252 on the same trailer as my mini skid steer and it was more convenient to take that setup than make an extra trip for the towable grinder.

yes, on large stumps over 40" diameter, the towable grinder is faster but, considering the overall picture, the 252 is more efficient since it also gets into back yards. Owning a 252 is different than renting one. When you own the machine, you can put on whatever tooth style you want and keep them sharp. That's key. Also, you can disconnect the autosweep which doubles if not triples performance.

I guess I'm trying to talk you into starting with a 252 and then upgrade after you have it paid for which will probably be a year or two max. No better start-up machine IMO considering what it will do and how cheap you can buy a used one. $5-7k for a good used one (700-1000hrs) and 7-10k for a barely used one (under 500hrs). Wait until the new 372 has been out for a couple years and then buy a used one with the yanmar motor. sounds like it's a lot better than the diahatsu. If you're dead set on the 352, then find a briggs 35hp gasser.

AP