Survey says...

[Sherwood_Forest]

Greetings from a new member...

My partner and I are considering expanding our business model to include offering free tree disposal to Arborists, under some conditions, and a minimal pick up charge for trees that cannot be delivered. Is disposal of large trees really an issue for some Arborists?

Our plan calls for converting the trees to commodities rather than just dumping into the landfills as solid waste. I am sure that the service will not be appropriate for every Arborist, but was wondering if there would be any Arborists that would consider using such a service if it existed in their area.

We would list species and minimum size requirements so as not to become another landfill, if you will.

Any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated...

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

If i were you i would do the math's throughly.All the tree dumps/tips/composting/mulch producers i know of have to charge the tree cutter a dump fee ie per ton or per cubic ft

 

[Sherwood_Forest]

We are not doing this out of the kindness of our hearts, so to speak. We are supplying kiln dried lumber to furniture and cabinet shops, single man shops, flooring manufacturers, etc. That is the only way we could take in trees without charging the arborists. If we pick them up, then we would charge a nominal fee. We can save some material acquisition costs and they can save some disposal costs… regardless of how they choose to bill their customers, which is in turn none of our business.

We are not going for the limbs nor do we want to do firewood, chipping or mulching. We are interested in tree trunks, supposedly the most expensive to dump, and then process them into value-added resources.

If the Arborists are interested in free disposal under our conditions, then making a profit on the milling, etc. is our issue. We are mainly interested in whether arborists would use the service if it existed. A few locals have expressed serious interest and we were wondering just how deep the interest would run.

Again, making a profit on the venture is not the question, rather would arborists take advantage of such a system.

Thanks… good input… keep it coming until I scream uncle… or some other sort of surrender!

 

[Stumper]

In my area I can get logs picked up on site and get paid for them. One thing you will run into is that many arborists are not equipped to handle logs.Therefore they block everything into pieces that can be loaded by hand. IF I didn't have a firewood dealer with a grapple loader to come pick up everything but brush I would consider paying a very small fee to have logs picked up on jobs where it was feasible. If I have to pay for hauling then the delays of scheduling pick up and the inconvenience of bringing sawlogs out of backyards would make me tend to just buck stuff into firewood most of the time. :angel:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

A lot of guys in the PNW sell thier saw grade logs.

 

[tnttreeman]

Grade logs = $$, can't see paying to get rid of them when I get paid by the guy picking them up. The money losing part of the job is brush and clean-up debris. Now, if I only had a tub grinder with a coloring attachment.....

 

[NickfromWI]

Sherwood, I think that is a marvelous idea. In my opinion, every feasible step should be taken to prevent usable goods from going to the dump. If the arborists in your area can explain to the customers that it is not necessary to trash the wood, they might be willing to let the log lay in the yard until the next day when you can get out there to get the wood.

It is a shame to see a nice tree cut down. It is also a shame to see a nice tree cut down and the wood just thrown away. Firewood is better than nothing, but if a tree I cut down becomes cabinets or just beams or anything, well, at least all is not wasted.

Go for it. I hope it works. Do whatever you can to sell your service to the local arborists. Work with them however you can. The BEST thing, for me, on the job site, is to know that your guys will be there when we are done to pick up the wood. Often times, I know this is not possible, but a man can dream, can't he!

So under your plan, we would bring logs to you, (same as bringing them to the dump) but we don't have to pay you like we have to pay the dump. So we save a little there. However, as Stumper has pointed out, it's a lot harder to move a solid trunk (in 16' lengths or whatever you want) than it is to dump firewood size pieces. Now it's going to cost me money to deliver to you, because it's a big piece and I might not have equipment to handle that big wood. So, from a $$$ standpoint, it's not worth it for me.

If I can leave them on site, knowing that you'll be there the next day to get it, now it's not costing me anything, and as a matter of fact, it would be saving me something because I don't lose money to handle the big wood. I can pocket this or pass it on to the client.

However, you are saying there will be a pickup fee. Now my decision is based on what that fee is. If you tell me $500, well it's cheaper for me to trash the wood. If you tell me $50, that seems like it'd work out for me. I can just figure that $50 into the bill and everyone goes home happy.

So knowing you will be making money off the wood, I would be hestiant to pay you anything more than the inconvenience of trashing it myself. If you told me it was a small flat fee for each pick-up...that seems fair.

I'd be an easy sell because I am a flip-flop wearing tree hugger, so I would go out of my way to sell this service to my clients. But arborists in general are business people and if it's not worth the money, there's no reason to do it.

So what's that fee? What, in time and $ will it mean to me and my clients?

love
nick

 

[treeman82]

I can only see that as a money losing proposition. Anybody who knows whats going on will know that they can get paid for the logs. There is a company a little ways north of here, they have a clearing / material handling business. Contractors pay them a fee (per yard) and they then charge another contractor a fee (per yard) after they run it through a tub grinder.

 

[Newfie]

The other problem I can see with the idea, is the potential issue of the arborist having to make separate trips to get rid of big wood and another to dump brush or chips. Making yourself a one stop service would make your "service" more appealing.

 

[Dadatwins]

It sounds like a novel idea, but like Newfie said it adds another stop to the disposal process which costs $$ and time. Also who makes the decision whether a log is good or not? I estimate the job anticipating getting rid of the log to your service because it may look good standing, but comes down and is hollow or not as prime as you request. Now you will not accept it and I take a loss on the additional disposal. Think it would be a hard sell to offer the service and not accept everything. Good luck.

 

[jeremy]

It sounds like a good idea to me. If you can use wood in sizes other than normal saw logs. I have a friend that is a wood worker, and he has a small saw mill. I will bring him wood in all different lengths, and he uses as much as he can. Most of the wood I being him is worthless to normal saw mills, but he make some very nice stuff from it.

 

[P_woozel]

A lot of the wood we bring down in this area is not"merchantable" that just means you don't have an immediate market. Having a place to sort and store logs or better yet cut dimensional stuff, you can find small specialty markets. There is a guy here who does fine and he coes to the jobsite and gets the stuff, he a real bad highgrader, but with the cost of fuel I dont blame him too much. Anyway you could make it work.

 

[Sherwood_Forest]

We are factoring in plans for a knuckleboom capable of handling 10 tons. We are willing to take 4' lengths and above. We can, if the tree is worth the effort and expense, work a crane for $200/Hour. We do not want to become a garbage dump nor a landfill. We know that most every professional arborist organization has a chipper but not many can process over 9" in diameter. That would take care of the "brush" issue and smaller limb material. We are willing to take 12" material and larger. That leaves the 9"-11" material.

Arborists factor in their usual disposal fees and only incur the expense for the chipper material and the limbs from 9-11 inches. That is extra money in their pocket. My guess is that a good saw guy can buck the 9-11" limb material faster than the log. So I can see a labor savings as well as a dump fee savings.

We also assume that a good arborist has a relative good chance of determining the "health" of a tree long before dropping it... maybe not. It is not my "core competancy"... making lumber is.

If an arborist cannot tell that the tree is dead and has to dispose of a hollow, punky tree, and he has already factored in the disposal fee, then it's business as usual. If he has a viable tree, then he is money ahead if he disposes of it for free. In either case, no one is at an advantage.

If some arborists are selling their trees, fantastic! If all arborists sell their trees, then no need for our plan. As for buying trees, it certainly is not out of the question, but we can get full logging truck loads of Maple, including Ambrosia Maple, for $1200, so factor the $$/mbf and it has to be a really sweet log to pay for it. Right now we have access to White Oak at $250/mbf. Since we have the facility to accept logs, we thought we could open a portion of it for arborists that are paying for landfill loads.

As for dependable pickup of logs, we are assumming that most removals are not spur of the moment rash decisions and are scheduled in advance. As such, we can work within schedules.

As for fees to pickup logs, we are not looking at that as a profit center... just covering our travel expense. Since 95% of our logs are delivered, we really do not "have to" pick up logs. However, if we can assist "some" arborists to put more money in their pockets with less effort, great.

One final issue is the tramp metal in urban logs. The odds of a chainsaw finding tramp metal when bucking logs is significantly less than sawing the log into dimensional lumber. So, any financial advantage in urban "saw logs" has to be considered. $600 blades are not easy to absorb unless the cost of raw materials is negligable.

For those that are "selling" urban saw logs, what are you getting?

Good stuff... still not willing to cry uncle... yet

 

[MasterBlaster]

Tramp metal?

Cool, I've never heard that term before.

I hate tramp metal.

 

[ORclimber]

Sherwood Forest, I'd be interested in hearing what your after and what you'd charge.

 

[jason j ladue]

sherwood, where you located/working?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Sherwood Forest, I'd be interested in hearing what your after and what you'd charge.

How about this, with good sawlogs he sells them on consignment. The arborist gets a % of net after S&H cost.

 

[Sherwood_Forest]

Well....

How about this, with good sawlogs he sells them on consignment. The arborist gets a % of net after S&H cost.

... I suppose I could consider selling saw logs.... but I am in the business of sawing logs... so how would we work the percentages again...??

But hey... I am open to any idea! How about I broker any sawlog that you want to deliver to me and if it doesn't sell after a period of time you come and get it or we cut it up.

Keep those suggestions coming... I know there is a business idea in there somewhere!

 

[Newfie]

I know there is a business idea in there somewhere!

Probably. Maybe not a good one though.

How about no pick-up fee since you are getting the raw material for free? Greedy-greedy makes a hungry puppy. You win(just not as much, but better than paying full freight for logs), the arborist wins.

 

[Sherwood_Forest]

Well... today...

... we bucked up a 30" Black Walnut. Did a "free" retrieval. Log still there. One 6" long 1/2" diameter spike, 4' of chain link and another 1/2" bolt all buried in the tree. Ran out of chain saw chains... Can only imagine what else is buried in this Urban Wonder... once someone tries to mill lumber.

The local landfill takes in "green solid waste material" at $76/ton. The log would scale out at about 10 tons. So, labor to buck and split and load in the dumpster, transport to the landfill (5 miles from my place) and then pay $750 to dump. Or, bring the log to me for the same transport cost and pay nothing to dump it and save the labor bucking and splitting. Who really wins? I still take the big risk to equipment and the Arborist still charges the client full disposal costs for the actual cost of dumping a log for free.

You are right... Greedy - Greedy makes a hungry puppy.... and so will landfill disposal fees.

Of course, if there is someone out there who wants to spend the money and the time and equipment costs on Urban Saw Logs just to cut metal so they can maybe mill some lumber to replace their equipment, I say sell it to them!