Synthetic enthusiasts

[crowe]

I just thought I would let everyone know that I will be putting up my power tuned 372 in a couple of weeks. I ran the saw on Mobil Mx2t at 32:1 the saw has roughly cut over One million 250 thousand Bd Ft. The saw is still sitting at 163 pds of compression and is still mighty strong for the work it has seen. I have no doubts that a million and a half would not be out of the question. But I will put it on the dozer for back-up and get ready fro the new 2186 by Dennis which should be coming in a couple of weeks. I am sold on synthetic mix. later, Wade

 

[vsteel]

Since I never got to post on a synthetic thread before, I thought I would jump in.

Synthetics are better if your application can use it. Air cooled motors are a prime example of this. I personaly run synthetics in all of my aircooled motors. The higher temps if the aircooled motor let a synthetic show some of its value. If your motor is ran in cooler tempratures then of course you will not see as much benafit.

Liquid cooled motors, depends on the application. The daily driver, no you are not going to see a benafit most likely. Those motors don't beat the crap out of the oil because they run cooler. The only liquid cooled motors I would run synthetic in are race motors, and possibly turbo aplications. The one exception being if you have to start your vehicle in -30 below temps the flow ability might help a little. The family minivan though is fine on dino oil.

ER, slick 50, (fill in your fav) are all crap. There are 3 main kinds of these.
1. 50 weight oil.
2. 50 weight oil with lots of additives that normally come in your oil
3. oil with teflon in it.

number 1 doesn't do a thing for your motor.

number 2 doesn't do a thing, but has the added danger of not being compatable with your manufacture's oil

number 3 is is the bad one. teflon is slick yea, but its crap in a motor. The reason being the teflon is not going to stick to metal without special processes. What really happens is that when teflon molocules are put under stress they link together and form large chains of the stuff. The large chains then go and get caught in your oil filter. This acutally starves your motor for oil because the filter is pluged with crap. Sure it makes more power for a bit. but you are tearing up stuff in the process. Sure race guys who are sponcered use it, who cares after every race or run the motor is completey torn down and rebuilt. Somewhere around here I have 15 pages of stuff on why additives are crap. (there is a reason to why its mady by only about 3 companies, sure you see a ton out there, but they all eventually come back to those 3.) Never use this stuff, ever.

sorry for the lengthy off topic ramble. To get back, yea, on my next saw I will use synthetic, won't hurt. It might cost a little more but its not like I will be going through10 gallons of the stuff a year.

 

[bwalker]

Vsteel, Speudo science / miracle additives like slick 50, ER and Prolong have nothign to do with syn oil. The blanket statements you are making about synthetics dont no hold water either. Frst of all out of all the application that syn oil is made for two cycles benifit the most from its use. It matters not if the engines is liquid or aircooled. With four cycle motors the waters become a little muddy. In most case syn auto oils will not prove cost effective even with extended drains. While they do perform much better than there dino counter parts most people do not own the vehicle long enough to realise the benifits. Further more most otc syn oils for autos are not real synthetics in the first place, so basicaly your paying top dollar for highly refined dino oil. there are soime very good dino oils on the market that will make your engine last along time. Chevron in particular makes really good oils.

 

[Stumper]

My dad used to have an AP machine. (Amperage and pressure are metered so that you can test a lubricant to failure and have hard figures.) The semi synthetic moly magic potion he was peddling was in fact good stuff and really put a lot of conventional oils to shame-----until he tested Shell Rotella T for a fleet owner who was considering switching-if the potion outperformed Rotella (which he was using happily). The potion beat it but not by much. Fleet owner and my Dad agreed that the diff didn't warrant paying over 3 times the price for Dad's product. He quit selling it thereafter. All oils are NOT equal but all are at least minimally adequate. Amongst the stuff that all sells for roughly the same price there are some gems. FWIW 20 years ago about the worst he tested was Quaker State. Regarding the "miracle additives": I logged milage on several vehicles before and after Slick 50 treatment-8-10% milage increases in every vehicle but one.

 

[vsteel]

Bwalker: The reason that I included magic in bottle products is because the general public does lump them in with the synthetics. If you also look a previous threads on the topic they get mentioned also. So I was throwing my 2 cents in.

I will have to disagre with you, the blanket statements. The reason that I made them is that aircooled motors run hotter, thats why I also mentioned turbo charged motors. I could have also included motorcycles that share the crankcase with the tranny. The loads are different, from crushing in the crankcase to shearing action in the transmission. The synthetics stand up better to that. With the lower oil volume, yes the 2 strokes will benafit the most, but the air cooled more so than the liquid, again because of heat. (if you look at the flashpoint and ash content this becomes aparent)

The synthetics offer the only truly significant differences, due to their superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendancy to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics. Synthetics are superior lubricants compared to traditional petroleum oils. You will have to decide if their high cost is justifed in your application.

This is why I said that the normal daily driver doesn't need synthetics. Just the stuff you are going to run really hard. As for the regular oils, in my research I have not found a lot of differences in them, they all seem pretty simular. Just stick with the brand you like and be happy. I personally run regular dino oil in all of my daily drivers and just change it at the 3000 mile mark.

 

[bwalker]

The reason that I made them is that aircooled motors run hotter, thats why I also mentioned turbo charged motors. I could have also included motorcycles that share the crankcase with the tranny.

With todays emmisions regs all motors run hot. Besides last I checked the trucking industry is doing fine using dino oil in turbo charged very high load motors.

yes the 2 strokes will benafit the most, but the air cooled more so than the liquid, again because of heat. (if you look at the flashpoint and ash content this becomes aparent)

Dino two stroke oils have no problem dealing with the heat generated by a aircooled motor. While some syn oils will take more heat its not really a pressing issue. Flashpoint is a meaningless spec that is generated for shipping purposes. It has no bearing on the heat cap[acity of the oil. Ash content is simply indicative of what additive package is used. The true advantage in two stroke apps(both liquid and air cooled) is the fact that when GOOD syn oil combusts it doesnt leave carbon deposits.
Carbon deposits causes wear because of its abrasive nature so the less you have the better.

Jumper, Its no secret that 15w40 fleet oils perform very well. They do not have ther additive packages mandated by the epa as passebger car oils do so they have much more antiwear and detergant additives. Rotella is a good oil, but its probaly one of the lower quality fleet oils. Mobil delvac1300 and chevron delo are both better choices as is penzoil longlife. Quaker state fwiw is now made by pennzoil which is owned by shell. Pennzoil use to be garbage, but now is actually one of the better otc oils.

 

[Fish]

W0w! Is that so? You all are likely correct! Synthetic oil is
the only way to go! I am a convert!

 

[xander9727]

Ken Dunn (AKA Yoda) and I were talking on the phone a few weeks ago and the subject of what oil to use in a high load engine came up. He stated that he worked on auto/truck engines for many years before becoming a chainsaw Jedi. In his experience the engines that ran single viscosity (20 or 30 weight) Rotella and other comparable fleet oils showed significantly less wear than those that ran multiviscosity oils. I am not trying to start the chevy/ford he said/she said stuff. I do however feel that most people on this site consider Ken credible and very knowledgeble and I just wanted to pass on some info that he gave to me. Additionally he stated that his experience with chainsaws has taught him that synthetic is far superior to dino oils. I personally try to use synthetic exclusively in my 2 strokes.

P.S. don't mind Fish......bantering with him only makes him happy and ignoring him only makes him worse.

 

[vsteel]

Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater tendancy for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. As for ash yes, I should have been a little more clear on that one. Ash is how much solid material is left when the oil is reacted with sulfuric acid and burned. This is used to quantify the amount of metallic antiwear and detergent additives in the oil. This does not relate to carbon and ash in an oil is a desirable quanity.

Emission motors run a little hotter today than the motors of old, but not that much hotter, they can't get to hot or the NOx get out of hand. Instead of 180 you are now at 210, still well within the range of standard petrolium oils. Diesel motors are hard on oil for contamination reasons, not shearability factors or compressability reasons. Those motors run cool and slow, their turbos are the same they run slower. When I mention turbos I am refering to small car or motorcycle extremely high reving variety.

Xander: yea, straight viscosity oils are better. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits, deposits can tear a motor up. Most of the time I run straight 30 weight in my daily driver.

Since I don't think bwalker and I will agree I will leave this as my last post on this subject. Here is what I recomend and what I do. Take it for what you think its worth.

1. Air cooled motors I run synthetic, most of the time they are small crankcase motors and one quart will probably fill them and they are not high oil change motors. I think economicaly it works out to use them.

2. Liquid cooled motors I just have 2 on synthetic. My motorcycle, its a high stressed little motor and also shares the crankcase with the engine oil. I belive it makes sence to run it in there for the added protection. I do have one V-8 on synthetic, its a high reving motor I run the ever living crap out of, but its more of a race motor so it gets oil changes not very often, synthetic is probably overkill on this motor.

3. The family daily drivers I run straight 30 weight in them in the summer, in the winter I run 10-30 in my pickup, in the wife's car I run 5-30. These motors don't run hard enough to warrent synthetic, they get frequent oil changes.

4. Diesel, I run straight dino oil. There is no need for synthetic.