Termination knots

[CJ-7]

Why is it that arborists are comfortable with the small buntline hitch, the anchor hitch, the double fisherman's knot and other cinching knots for termination at your saddle, yet rock climbers and emergency services seem to always use the more bulky figure eight or other looping knots? Are they safer?

 

[TheJollyLogger]

It's a cultural thing as much as anything. Most folks have a tendency to pass on the training they received, and innovation in safety gear can be slow to be adopted. Look at how long it took for leg loop style harnesses and SRT to become mainstream.

Also, most alpine and high angle techniques are belayed, whereas almost all arborist techniques are self belaying. A figure 8 follow-through is simply too bulky and interferes with most ascenders and progress capture devices.

 

[FunkyYota]

We just use overhands for backing up a rappel/belay in rock climbing. All it’s gotta do is not go through the device.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

We just use overhands for backing up a rappel/belay in rock climbing. All it’s gotta do is not go through the device.

He's talking about tie in knots, i.e. tying in to your harness.

 

[FunkyYota]

He's talking about termination knots

Misunderstanding.

yea the figure 8 follow through backed up with is standard in rock for sure. Yosemite finish or double fisherman backed up bowline is what I run if I’m planning on loading the rope a bunch. Way easier to untie.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Misunderstanding.

yea the figure 8 follow through backed up with is standard in rock for sure. Yosemite finish or double fisherman backed up bowline is what I run if I’m planning on loading the rope a bunch. Way easier to untie.

When I was rock climbing that was the standard as well. They're just too bulky for most arborist setups... one of the reasons a spliced eye is becoming more and more common... the trend towards mechanical devices and SRT techniques, as well as rope bridges is making that valuable real estate within arms length pretty crowded.

The other difference between alpine and arborist is that alpine is primarily fall protection, and subject to pretty extreme shockloads, whereas arborist techniques are primarily designed for canopy access and work positioning. The gear may look similar, but the way it is utilized and it's purpose is actually very different.

 

[Ketchup]

When I was rock climbing that was the standard as well. They're just too bulky for most arborist setups... one of the reasons a spliced eye is becoming more and more common... the trend towards mechanical devices and SRT techniques, as well as rope bridges is making that valuable real estate within arms length pretty crowded.

The other difference between alpine and arborist is that alpine is primarily fall protection, and subject to pretty extreme shockloads, whereas arborist techniques are primarily designed for canopy access and work positioning. The gear may look similar, but the way it is utilized and it's purpose is actually very different.

This.

I wouldn’t take a 30’ whipper on a bunt hitch.
I don’t want an open loop on my termination knot for sticks to get caught in. And I want it to untie without a fight.

But you will see tree guys using Figure 8s and fisherman knots. Lots of guys prefer to stick with what they know. I try not to be a jerk, but I groan inwardly when I see that stuff. Tree work is all about efficiency. Rock climbing knots are more for strength and ease of ID. Using an 8 or fisherman’s is going to eat time when you need to untie.

FWIW, Figure 8 is the strongest common knot. It has no severe bends or areas of force concentration. Bowline, Reverse Overhand Followthrough are notably more prone to failure.

But I’ve negative rigged thousands of pounds onto a running bowline and never had a knot break. Most any termination knot should be strong enough to hold our bodyweight.