Termination Knots
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Sunrise Guy
Addicted to ArboristSite
I've trusted my life, literally, to an anchor hitch for the complete time I've been an arborist, and it has never let me down, literally! I always tie a figure eight on the tail.
Climb020
ArboristSite Operative
Achor hitch here as well but I don't back it up just leave a 6" tall. But anymore I am just splicing the ends. When I don't have to worry about untying the knot I will use a double fishermans but that is just for my lanyard.
the ONLY termination knot I would not backup is a triple fisherman. Your mileage may veri... much better to error on the safe side.
there's been instances of termination knots failing due to not tied correctly or what ever reason. if a backup knot like double fisherman had been used... high probability those dead climbers would still be alive.
please note I have the same view about splices. don't use splices due to fact I don't know if person did the splice was having a bad day or not. if I tie a knot... I KNOW knot is tied properly. please look carefully at picture posted above. notice all knots are tied perfectly symmetrical. that's part of test if knot is tied properly.
again your mileage may veri..
there's been instances of termination knots failing due to not tied correctly or what ever reason. if a backup knot like double fisherman had been used... high probability those dead climbers would still be alive.
please note I have the same view about splices. don't use splices due to fact I don't know if person did the splice was having a bad day or not. if I tie a knot... I KNOW knot is tied properly. please look carefully at picture posted above. notice all knots are tied perfectly symmetrical. that's part of test if knot is tied properly.
again your mileage may veri..
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John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I use a fishermans and tie it new every time. I like how it tails up, vs out and falls apart eaily once the carbiner is out.
BTW a Dbl fishermans has two of them, tied opposing so the tails match up.
BTW a Dbl fishermans has two of them, tied opposing so the tails match up.
gitrdun_climbr
ArboristSite Operative
anchor knot here
I use anchor knot backed up with two or three half hitches. I like that it cinches the biner for proper axis loading everytime and I was just taught to back it up from the beginning which meant to me someone must have had one slip in the past.
Seems there are several good attachment knots out there though.
046 I feel much the same way as you about splices. I know they're very popular and probably quite secure. I know that knots increase rope bend and therefore reduce strength...splices are less bulky...etc. I just haven't been able to make the change yet. Somehow I find great comfort and reliability in a well tied, inspectable knot. Has anyone heard of a splice failing?
I use anchor knot backed up with two or three half hitches. I like that it cinches the biner for proper axis loading everytime and I was just taught to back it up from the beginning which meant to me someone must have had one slip in the past.
Seems there are several good attachment knots out there though.
046 I feel much the same way as you about splices. I know they're very popular and probably quite secure. I know that knots increase rope bend and therefore reduce strength...splices are less bulky...etc. I just haven't been able to make the change yet. Somehow I find great comfort and reliability in a well tied, inspectable knot. Has anyone heard of a splice failing?
yes... splices have failed. but then so has badly tie knots.
difference is I'm in control of how my knots are tied. then factor in a backup knot.
I feel much safer than a splice done by someone I have no control over.
new standards require cinching bends for termination knots.
triple fisherman fits right in!
difference is I'm in control of how my knots are tied. then factor in a backup knot.
I feel much safer than a splice done by someone I have no control over.
new standards require cinching bends for termination knots.
triple fisherman fits right in!
Kneejerk Bombas
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The anchor knot has the disadvantage of the tail exiting the knot to the side, which becomes an advantage if you're old schooling it with a blakes or taughtline hitch.
The bend radius becomes a non-issue when you consider the most loaded and first bend of a termination knot is around the carabinner or snap, and both a splice and a knot have to make this bend.
Plus, splices are not as good at cinching up on the hardware.
And when we are terminating a tress cord, a knot can be re-tied to adjust the length of the cord, where with a splice, you're stuck with the length you got. This is a definite disadvantage because many of the hitches are so cord length sensitive.
The bend radius becomes a non-issue when you consider the most loaded and first bend of a termination knot is around the carabinner or snap, and both a splice and a knot have to make this bend.
Plus, splices are not as good at cinching up on the hardware.
And when we are terminating a tress cord, a knot can be re-tied to adjust the length of the cord, where with a splice, you're stuck with the length you got. This is a definite disadvantage because many of the hitches are so cord length sensitive.
i all ways preferred the way a DBY (on a snap) served the 'tail' up/over for Tautline and Blake's; finding the pull up from under an Anchor as rather diconcerting. Snaps are self righting compaired to krabs when loaded, whereby the pull must stay on the long axis; so the non-shrinking eye of the Bowline is not a concern in a snap IMLHO. MTL Bowline to Krab Warning
Classically an Anchor Hitch (really called a Bend; because olde sailors would Bend a line to a spar etc. as well as to another line in their terminology) is always backed up with a Half Hitch. This gives it the same exact structure as my thumbrule /simple base Hitch security of a RoundTurn and 2 Half Hitches; except the RoundTurn sits on the 1st Half Hitching for more security.
As we take the Anchor Bend/Hitch and tie it back to it's own self to form an eye we have a/n Double Overhand, Double Noose, Scaffold, Fishermans . The Round Turn sitting on it's own bootstrap still mechanically serves as a Round Turn and 1 Half Hitch i think; then the preceding Turn on the krab/mount further buffers force and vibration to about give as fair a security as a trailing Half Hitch? To about equal this baseline Round Turn and 2 Half Hitches?
i think as a line under tension apporaches a mount it is stretched, then the frictions of the mount reduce the force and thereby stretch, also the gripping action helps reduce stretch too. This gives a sudden, untapered change in the line; a weakness. Further as the Bitter End comes around to bend it's own Standing Part, the forces are leveraged higher; the kind of leveraging that you get from barely bending a straight line, to radically increase tension, and thereby stretch(?) Once again an untapered change. All this going on in one area is destabilizing to form, function, strength etc.
But as our Scaffold etc. Hitch comes around to bend it's own Standing Part; it takes several, stacked Turns, to perform a more stabilizing action; using the force remaining in the Bitters to spread out the change in bend and stretch over a longer, not so sudden distance; by firming the Standing Part i think. Note, if we take a RoundTurn on the krab/or other mount first; the effect is lost/ less force to use in the firming and gripping line; and the strength tests go down to reaffirn this theorized pattern.
The leveraging of the line around the mount is a diffeent matter; this leveraging is not of the slight bend in a straight bend sort; but rather a tight U shape bend. This leveraging is from compressing the inner part of the tight arc. Compression is push; and rope is only working when pulling; so this part of the line excludes itself from tension/pull; then the layer of fibers above it are kinda relaxed and jsut a leveraged multiplier/distance to the outside fibers; so not tottally working either. Then finally the outer fibers are arched and singled out as the real tensioned/ pulling fibers carrying the load. So this type of leveraging raisies the tension in the fibers too, but jsut a few of them. Both leveraging scenarios reduce the reamaining useable rated tensile; but by different means. The grip of the Anchor to self also seems to afford here a more 2 legs of line support into 1 of a splice; once again disappearing as tension is reduced going to the Anchor (to self) has a RoundTurn on the mount preceding it.
This configuration does have something over an eye splice; inj that in an eye splice you can't see the Bitters; but a bright piece of tape sticking out on end of line in a Scaffold etc. Hitch does give more of a visual check of it's integrity.
i generally go with a Triple, but don't feel tooo bad about a double, especially if the line is bent/compromised elsewhere, and this end link only need to be about as strong as that other compromised link/bending. i like my wraps on it not crossed though, for a smoother flow of firming force, over larger area, that is more mechanically and visually tapered.:deadhorse
<-Maas Proofing Voodoo)
Classically an Anchor Hitch (really called a Bend; because olde sailors would Bend a line to a spar etc. as well as to another line in their terminology) is always backed up with a Half Hitch. This gives it the same exact structure as my thumbrule /simple base Hitch security of a RoundTurn and 2 Half Hitches; except the RoundTurn sits on the 1st Half Hitching for more security.
As we take the Anchor Bend/Hitch and tie it back to it's own self to form an eye we have a/n Double Overhand, Double Noose, Scaffold, Fishermans . The Round Turn sitting on it's own bootstrap still mechanically serves as a Round Turn and 1 Half Hitch i think; then the preceding Turn on the krab/mount further buffers force and vibration to about give as fair a security as a trailing Half Hitch? To about equal this baseline Round Turn and 2 Half Hitches?
i think as a line under tension apporaches a mount it is stretched, then the frictions of the mount reduce the force and thereby stretch, also the gripping action helps reduce stretch too. This gives a sudden, untapered change in the line; a weakness. Further as the Bitter End comes around to bend it's own Standing Part, the forces are leveraged higher; the kind of leveraging that you get from barely bending a straight line, to radically increase tension, and thereby stretch(?) Once again an untapered change. All this going on in one area is destabilizing to form, function, strength etc.
But as our Scaffold etc. Hitch comes around to bend it's own Standing Part; it takes several, stacked Turns, to perform a more stabilizing action; using the force remaining in the Bitters to spread out the change in bend and stretch over a longer, not so sudden distance; by firming the Standing Part i think. Note, if we take a RoundTurn on the krab/or other mount first; the effect is lost/ less force to use in the firming and gripping line; and the strength tests go down to reaffirn this theorized pattern.
The leveraging of the line around the mount is a diffeent matter; this leveraging is not of the slight bend in a straight bend sort; but rather a tight U shape bend. This leveraging is from compressing the inner part of the tight arc. Compression is push; and rope is only working when pulling; so this part of the line excludes itself from tension/pull; then the layer of fibers above it are kinda relaxed and jsut a leveraged multiplier/distance to the outside fibers; so not tottally working either. Then finally the outer fibers are arched and singled out as the real tensioned/ pulling fibers carrying the load. So this type of leveraging raisies the tension in the fibers too, but jsut a few of them. Both leveraging scenarios reduce the reamaining useable rated tensile; but by different means. The grip of the Anchor to self also seems to afford here a more 2 legs of line support into 1 of a splice; once again disappearing as tension is reduced going to the Anchor (to self) has a RoundTurn on the mount preceding it.
This configuration does have something over an eye splice; inj that in an eye splice you can't see the Bitters; but a bright piece of tape sticking out on end of line in a Scaffold etc. Hitch does give more of a visual check of it's integrity.
i generally go with a Triple, but don't feel tooo bad about a double, especially if the line is bent/compromised elsewhere, and this end link only need to be about as strong as that other compromised link/bending. i like my wraps on it not crossed though, for a smoother flow of firming force, over larger area, that is more mechanically and visually tapered.:deadhorse
<-Maas Proofing Voodoo)treesypder, what a wealth of critical information. Your posts have an incredible amount of depth. thanks for sharing!
very interesting test results for double fisherman. his theory for why it's so strong is how double fisherman cinches into itself. this of course dissipates energy from fall. only a 5% loss of strength.
very interesting test results for double fisherman. his theory for why it's so strong is how double fisherman cinches into itself. this of course dissipates energy from fall. only a 5% loss of strength.
i all ways preferred the way a DBY (on a snap) served the 'tail' up/over for Tautline and Blake's; finding the pull up from under an Anchor as rather diconcerting. Snaps are self righting compaired to krabs when loaded, whereby the pull must stay on the long axis; so the non-shrinking eye of the Bowline is not a concern in a snap IMLHO. MTL Bowline to Krab Warning
Classically an Anchor Hitch (really called a Bend; because olde sailors would Bend a line to a spar etc. as well as to another line in their terminology) is always backed up with a Half Hitch. This gives it the same exact structure as my thumbrule /simple base Hitch security of a RoundTurn and 2 Half Hitches; except the RoundTurn sits on the 1st Half Hitching for more security.
As we take the Anchor Bend/Hitch and tie it back to it's own self to form an eye we have a/n Double Overhand, Double Noose, Scaffold, Fishermans . The Round Turn sitting on it's own bootstrap still mechanically serves as a Round Turn and 1 Half Hitch i think; then the preceding Turn on the krab/mount further buffers force and vibration to about give as fair a security as a trailing Half Hitch? To about equal this baseline Round Turn and 2 Half Hitches?
i think as a line under tension apporaches a mount it is stretched, then the frictions of the mount reduce the force and thereby stretch, also the gripping action helps reduce stretch too. This gives a sudden, untapered change in the line; a weakness. Further as the Bitter End comes around to bend it's own Standing Part, the forces are leveraged higher; the kind of leveraging that you get from barely bending a straight line, to radically increase tension, and thereby stretch(?) Once again an untapered change. All this going on in one area is destabilizing to form, function, strength etc.
But as our Scaffold etc. Hitch comes around to bend it's own Standing Part; it takes several, stacked Turns, to perform a more stabilizing action; using the force remaining in the Bitters to spread out the change in bend and stretch over a longer, not so sudden distance; by firming the Standing Part i think. Note, if we take a RoundTurn on the krab/or other mount first; the effect is lost/ less force to use in the firming and gripping line; and the strength tests go down to reaffirn this theorized pattern.
The leveraging of the line around the mount is a diffeent matter; this leveraging is not of the slight bend in a straight bend sort; but rather a tight U shape bend. This leveraging is from compressing the inner part of the tight arc. Compression is push; and rope is only working when pulling; so this part of the line excludes itself from tension/pull; then the layer of fibers above it are kinda relaxed and jsut a leveraged multiplier/distance to the outside fibers; so not tottally working either. Then finally the outer fibers are arched and singled out as the real tensioned/ pulling fibers carrying the load. So this type of leveraging raisies the tension in the fibers too, but jsut a few of them. Both leveraging scenarios reduce the reamaining useable rated tensile; but by different means. The grip of the Anchor to self also seems to afford here a more 2 legs of line support into 1 of a splice; once again disappearing as tension is reduced going to the Anchor (to self) has a RoundTurn on the mount preceding it.
This configuration does have something over an eye splice; inj that in an eye splice you can't see the Bitters; but a bright piece of tape sticking out on end of line in a Scaffold etc. Hitch does give more of a visual check of it's integrity.
i generally go with a Triple, but don't feel tooo bad about a double, especially if the line is bent/compromised elsewhere, and this end link only need to be about as strong as that other compromised link/bending. i like my wraps on it not crossed though, for a smoother flow of firming force, over larger area, that is more mechanically and visually tapered.:deadhorse
Kneejerk Bombas
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Is all this attention to the weakening effect of a knot really important? My climbing ropes and prusik cords are all spliceable, and I use splices instead of knots for terminations. But I don't do it because the rope is theoretically stronger. I would still do it even if the rope was theoretically weaker.
The weakest, crappiest knot is going to require so much force to break, assuming you have a decent rope/prusik cord, that the person attached to that knot will no longer be with us. It seems to me that for knots there are several important issues (I still have to tie them sometimes): is it easy to tie? is it easy to see that it is tied correctly? is it easy to dress and set? is it easy to untie? is it secure against unrolling, inverting, slipping, etc.?
The world of splices is a bit simpler:did you make the splice well in the first place?
I did two destructive tests on 5/16 in tenex (rated tensile, 4700 lb.) a couple of months ago. One piece was a 30 in rope with a small eye in each end. The other was a loop with and end-to-end splice. There were 4 splices altogether, all made according to Samson's on-line instructions. And I must say, since I knew the ropes were going to be destroyed, I did not lavish the care on the splices that I normally would--I more or less threw them together.
The results were very impressive. The local professional arborist, a real old-timer, helped me break them with his 4X4 3/4 ton pickup. We needed a 2 to 1 pulley setup to break the straight rope, and we needed a 4 to 1 setup to break the loop. In the latter test, one of the big blocks went flying after the rope broke, knocking over a nice little maple 6 inches in diameter. We had no dynamometer to produce actual numbers, but it was obvious that a terrific amount of force was involved.
Where did the ropes break? Right where they are expected to break, at the very end of the buried part of the splice. None of the splices slipped, and both breaks were precisely at the end of the buried taper. I no longer worry about either the strength or the security of my splices. I don't worry about knots much either, but I don't think they are anywhere near as secure as a properly made splice.
KentuckySawyer
ArboristSite Operative
What this tells me is that knowing your knots and how to dress/set them is the critical thing. Backing up a perfectly secure knot like a buntline hitch or a scaffold (dbl fisherman) with ANOTHER knot is impractical and cumbersome.
I always terminate with a buntline on my climb line. Scaffold on the lanyard.
totally agree backing up a perfectly secure knot with another secure knot is a cumbersome and a pita.
but totally disagree it's impractical!
a backup knot is exactly that... a backup. it's a fail safe cover your A** tactic. very much like taking out an insurance policy. hope like hell you never will use it.... but as we all know insurance is a good thing to have.
why do you think they call it an accident?
again... this is my take. your mileage my veri.
but totally disagree it's impractical!
a backup knot is exactly that... a backup. it's a fail safe cover your A** tactic. very much like taking out an insurance policy. hope like hell you never will use it.... but as we all know insurance is a good thing to have.
why do you think they call it an accident?
again... this is my take. your mileage my veri.
gitrdun_climbr
ArboristSite Operative
knots v. splice
In the past I thought I would 'upgrade' to splices for termination but these days I'm not so sure for a couple of reasons. 1) With a splice there is no option for back up, if the splice slips, you die (and I don't know if this even happens). If my anchor knot slips I have backup. 2) My anchor knot cinches the biner tightly keeping the load consistently along it's major axis...this is not a feature I want to surrender in the name of saving 15 seconds of knot tying time, nor do I want to spend the time visually checking the biners everytime I place load on them to ensure one hasn't shifted ajar. 3) A knot and it's backup are easily inspectable whereas the mechanics of a splice are more hidden. 4) My split-tails can be used from either side for the friction hitch, wearing them more evenly and increasing life (though this isn't a huge deal at under $1/ft).
I know there are a few ADVANTAGES to using splices as well but spending the time to tie a simple knot and slightly less bulk aren't compelling enough to switch over for me personally at this time. And this is coming from someone who has never used splices, please someone correct me if I'm wrong...they do cinch...highly inspectable...bombproof...whatever it may be.
MM, am I that 'old school' for using a blakes hitch to work off? Is the VT good for working the tree with? Is there an even more efficient/effective friction hitch? Thanks in advance.
In the past I thought I would 'upgrade' to splices for termination but these days I'm not so sure for a couple of reasons. 1) With a splice there is no option for back up, if the splice slips, you die (and I don't know if this even happens). If my anchor knot slips I have backup. 2) My anchor knot cinches the biner tightly keeping the load consistently along it's major axis...this is not a feature I want to surrender in the name of saving 15 seconds of knot tying time, nor do I want to spend the time visually checking the biners everytime I place load on them to ensure one hasn't shifted ajar. 3) A knot and it's backup are easily inspectable whereas the mechanics of a splice are more hidden. 4) My split-tails can be used from either side for the friction hitch, wearing them more evenly and increasing life (though this isn't a huge deal at under $1/ft).
I know there are a few ADVANTAGES to using splices as well but spending the time to tie a simple knot and slightly less bulk aren't compelling enough to switch over for me personally at this time. And this is coming from someone who has never used splices, please someone correct me if I'm wrong...they do cinch...highly inspectable...bombproof...whatever it may be.
MM, am I that 'old school' for using a blakes hitch to work off? Is the VT good for working the tree with? Is there an even more efficient/effective friction hitch? Thanks in advance.
i like a Scaffold etc. hitch because with bright tape on end i have a visual inspection cue instantly as to it's status. Also a splice stiffens more line and can't start friction hitch so close to the krab, nor wear as evenly. Bending the stiffrer region would leverage it more, because resistance to bend is what gives leveraging. i've had a professionally done splice come apart.
A lot of what we say are backup knots; are really standard stopper knot type strategies used for millenniums by sailor's trusting their lives to them for months at a time. then there are some like a Square/Reef Knot that are actually backed up by Dbl. Fisherman's when used as a bend. the double Fisherman's provide security but can jam, but here keep the Square Knot (not meant to be used as a bend) square, and this won't jam.
Examining the knots i think is good; especially in ones you use all the time and are familiar with; so as to be able to see them clearly and take their lessons to other knots etc. Let alone understand what you trust your life too, new things that come along, not to mention separating the wheat from chaff with all the conflicting knot names and info that abound. The models i propose can lead to making sense out of using a 'Long Eyed Cow' to mount a pulley or brake on more confidentally; or a similar Timber; but with a Double Round Turn (3 turns) around the Standing, rather than just a BackHand Hitch (Muenter not on krab, that begins both a Cow and Timber) etc. for more strength and security; but not doing same with Cow, as it is more likely to jam (but is stronger and more secure). Heavy tarps over possible breaks help save bystanders; whether wooden or flesh.
The theory of the Scaffold in the article is that persons; but i think that the releif in the coil(extra line to draw on) and slide(dissipate force) would help in dynamic situation to provide relief; but in the test they did; it always seems to me that a static/slow draw test; jsut provides extra length that has to be drawn for the test. Perhaps some stabilizing for the more static situation too; but i have high hopes for it functioning dynamically, and wanted to toss that link out first without biasing opinions my way.
A lot of what we say are backup knots; are really standard stopper knot type strategies used for millenniums by sailor's trusting their lives to them for months at a time. then there are some like a Square/Reef Knot that are actually backed up by Dbl. Fisherman's when used as a bend. the double Fisherman's provide security but can jam, but here keep the Square Knot (not meant to be used as a bend) square, and this won't jam.
Examining the knots i think is good; especially in ones you use all the time and are familiar with; so as to be able to see them clearly and take their lessons to other knots etc. Let alone understand what you trust your life too, new things that come along, not to mention separating the wheat from chaff with all the conflicting knot names and info that abound. The models i propose can lead to making sense out of using a 'Long Eyed Cow' to mount a pulley or brake on more confidentally; or a similar Timber; but with a Double Round Turn (3 turns) around the Standing, rather than just a BackHand Hitch (Muenter not on krab, that begins both a Cow and Timber) etc. for more strength and security; but not doing same with Cow, as it is more likely to jam (but is stronger and more secure). Heavy tarps over possible breaks help save bystanders; whether wooden or flesh.
The theory of the Scaffold in the article is that persons; but i think that the releif in the coil(extra line to draw on) and slide(dissipate force) would help in dynamic situation to provide relief; but in the test they did; it always seems to me that a static/slow draw test; jsut provides extra length that has to be drawn for the test. Perhaps some stabilizing for the more static situation too; but i have high hopes for it functioning dynamically, and wanted to toss that link out first without biasing opinions my way.
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Climb020
ArboristSite Operative
Gitrdon you in a way are both correct and wrong in your thinking. I also to think like you until I started splicing and then after a month or 2 of practicing a began to trust splices.
Though you cannot adjust the splice to cinch down on the rope, if it is a smaller eye splice it will just fit a biner or if it is a larger splice you can use the blue bandit from sherrill to cause it do lock down and hold better.
Also splices are backed up themselves. Once the splice is made that is not it. Though it would hold weight you still have to do a lock-stich on the throat of the splice to prevent the splice from coming undone. And just like every piece of equipement the splice should be inspected before and after each use.
Though you cannot adjust the splice to cinch down on the rope, if it is a smaller eye splice it will just fit a biner or if it is a larger splice you can use the blue bandit from sherrill to cause it do lock down and hold better.
Also splices are backed up themselves. Once the splice is made that is not it. Though it would hold weight you still have to do a lock-stich on the throat of the splice to prevent the splice from coming undone. And just like every piece of equipement the splice should be inspected before and after each use.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Yes, you are climbing "old school". Not that there's anything wrong with that, a lot of guys do it and do just fine.
We're not just talking about a hitch, it's a whole system that changes. It makes life easier, more versatile, and ultimately faster.
The progression goes something like this:
1. You change from tying you hitch with the tail of your climbing rope, to a split tail.
2. Then you add a fair lead pulley. This allows you to advance the slack in your rope with one hand.
3. You change the split tail to a prussic cord and tie a VT because it's too hard to advance the Blakes with one hand.
4. You add a friction mover. Now taking up and letting out slack is very easy. Working the tree is no longer a fight with your rope.
5. The whole system stays tied together and bagged. No more tying and untying your hitch.
6. The stupid micro ascender on your lanyard gets tossed in the no longer used stuff bucket and replaced with a system exactly like your climbing line, only shorter. Now your lanyard goes in with one hand AND out while weighted.
Good luck!
