Termination Knots

[TheTreeSpyder]

i kinda go with TDS & I (inspect). Know your knots well enough to tell at a glance if they need re-stabilized/ dressed etc.; trying to spot check per use. The colorful 'flag'/tape on ends is part of this; even remotely.

Our lives and those under us trusting us here; have depended on knot knowledge; that gives quiet intense lessons; some even marching further with it. It can be hard, hair splitting things to correctly capture knot names; as they do blur some over time and between peoples; sometimes by use. A SheetBend to self, forming an eye is a Bowline; a bight placed on a mount becomes a Turn, a Crossed Turn pulled the other way forms a type of Hitch; placed on a line may only be a Half Hitch etc.

i don't think anyone hear; has researched through the ancient volumes and practices to scrutinize knot names etc. like ye ol'knudeNoggin; an authority in his own write.

Heare his prescriptions of Fisherman's/Double/Triple, Grapevines match those that he re-searched in hard text of:
Geoffery Budworth-"Knots & Ropework" (cofounder Knot tyer's Guild, past president)
Colin Jarmon- "Top Knots"
Dr. Cyrus Day "The Art and Scince of Knotting and Splicing"-Naval Insititue Press
Padgett & Smith-"On Rope" (climbing bible)
Randy Penn-"Everythings Knots" (hometown boy here; editor of No. American Knot Tyer's Guild periodical)
Clyde Soles-"Outdoor Knots Book" (Mt. & Ice climber, mag. editor and thanks knudeNoggin 1st for help in his acclaimed book)

Ashley's ABoK bible makes no direct referance to this in index (uses Englshman's, Angler's, Waterman's/ Water, True Lovers, Grapevine etc.) but in text he gives Fisherman's as knudeNoggin does. This includes Triple, Double etc. as numbers denoting Turns. All these books give a generous dose to knot addicts worldwide.

KN is just trying to keep the rest of ye straight, as he has tried with me(quite an undertaking in it's own self!)! i think tieing to eye of device/krab; is better de-scribed as Noose, Scaffold etc. rather Fisherman's to be more exact; and able to trade/expand with other disciplines as he lends.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

i Ashley's ABoK bible makes no direct referance to this in index (uses Englshman's, Angler's, Waterman's/ Water, True Lovers, Grapevine etc.) but in text he gives Fisherman's as knudeNoggin does. This includes Triple, Double etc. as numbers denoting Turns. All these books give a generous dose to knot addicts worldwide.

KN is just trying to keep the rest of ye straight, as he has tried with me(quite an undertaking in it's own self!)! i think tieing to eye of device/krab; is better de-scribed as Noose, Scaffold etc. rather Fisherman's to be more exact; and able to trade/expand with other disciplines as he lends.

I think somebody should grab credit for the knot and name it, because I think we can all agree it's not a Noose, Grapevine, Scaffold, Barrel or Fisherman's knot.
Maybe it's a three looped running grapevine.

 

[knudeNoggin]

Here's a common version of a Fisherman's knot:

Yes, of an "Improved Clinch" or "Locked Half Blood" knot, to be precise
--which is just one of many such angler knots. [Sosin&Kreh, Vic Dunaway, Geoff Wilson]

And here is a Double Fisherman's knot, "double", because two Fisherman's knots are used to join two lines. "Double" in the name has nothing to do with the number of loops.

By this revisionist logic, I'd like to see what a "Triple Fisherman's" knot is
--tic-tac-toe, three knots in a row? (Well, in fact, just such an application
of this name HAS been made, by Jost Gudelius, re an abseil-ropes joiner!
His was a sequence of (single) Overhands, forming an offset bend.)

This knot was popularized by our industries to make loops for various purposes or to join two ropes.

It was in use by anglers long before it was adopted elsewhere, to join gut
fishlines. Rockclimbers first used the (single) Fisherman's knot, among
others, moving to the Double FK ("double", because of the extra turn, the
"overwrap") after the advent of nylon cordage. [Wright&Magowan, Alpine
Journal, 1928]

The Fisherman's knot, and the Double Fisherman's knot are fishing knots, while the Triple Fisherman's knot is climbing knot, and triple does reflect the number of loops.

And "Fisherman's" doesn't reflect any of them, either! So why use this most
ill-fitting moniker?

In fact, Ashley presents the dble.overhand version as Poacher's knot (#409,
and elsewhere), and the one sparking this debate as Scaffold knot (#1120).
They are certainly nooses, as the knot is tied around its own rope.
(To judge "noose" by behavior is to subject the name to the vagries of
variance in material, knot-setting, & load--any of which factors can determine
whether a knot slides. I prefer to judge objectively, by the structure.)

Knots nomenclature is a study in conflict, inconsistency, & nonsense. I hope
to move it to higher ground, and I don't mind choosing a novel direction if it
is what works best. So, I argue in favor of "Grapevine" (for the rope-joining
"bend") & "Strangle" (for this noose hitch), as those names are pretty well
attached to structures with a dbl.overhand knot oriented with an overwrap
(as contrast, e.g., with the Anchor Bend/hitch, where the dbl. overhand is
otherwise oriented), and thus make a sensible starting point for a nominal
series varied by the number of overwraps--where the name's qualifying
terms "Double, Triple, ..." will match intuitively to the knot's observable
feature.

Why choose a name that (1) conflicts with apparent members of its series,
(2) doesn't indicate structure, & (3) makes no sense even on its own?
--three strikes, throw the bum out!


*kN*

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

So it's a Triple Grapevine Strangle?

 

[trimwizard]

I throw myself to the wolves

I terminate both my climb line and split tail into a snap with an Anchor Hitch/knot backed up with what I call a fishermen's knot (overhand stop knot tied around standing part of line) and tape the tail (bitters?).
Whatever anyone wants to call it, I like the extra turn and will start using it next time I retie my climb line.
I like to use knots as I change ends on my climb line every week or so to avoid constant wear in the same spot all the time.
I always use a back-up knot as it is my habit and the insignificant amount of time it takes to tie one or take it loose is well worth the extra security to me personally, but thats just me.
:help:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

If using an Anchor to krab and not to self to form noose might try a more of a Halyard. Make a 3 Turn Anchor on krab and bend the tail at finish backwards over itself. You can't slip it under the Turn it just came out of without losing that Turn as trap on tail/ Bitter(s), so go over that 1Turn and under the next 2. Which are really the 1st 2 that carry the most choking force on the Bitter(s).

Grapevine as a Bend; Strangle as Hitch i think KN meant?

Another point in favour of a 3 (or 4) Turn Strangle/ Noose/ Anchor to self to form Eye; is a heavier, but still compact/ dense throwing knot for repositioning TIP or line path to TIP. Heavier knot or krab making it easier to throw rope; knot weight is non-lethal though. Once thrown over branch; weight makes it easier to 'Flirt' rope around and down over on a given branch; or 'walk the dawg' from 1 branch to another- sometimes higher branch (to take a 'bad' throw and make it good; easier/livelier with throw bag as shown in Bob Weber tape).

 

[SRT-Tech]

I terminate my rope with a sewn eye termination, consisting of a steel rope thimble, sewn eye termination (like the petzl lanyards) covered with a siezing whipping, (both the sewn and siezing whipping are 100lb test polyester sailcord), and finally everything is covered with 2mm thick industrial shrinktrubing to protect the cord form abrasion.

sewn eye and siezings are considered by many to be stronger than a splice....100% of the rope strength is maintained , right thru the bend in the eye, to the end of the rope.

Had a bunch of these tested at on a pull test machine. the sewn eye temrination was on arborplex. broke at 6900lbs, and NOT at the sewn part but at the rope above the sewn eye.

good enough for me, simle and quick to do, and looks neat and tidy. Bombproof too.

 

[emr]

TreeSpyder, I learn much better with pictures, so is there any chance you can show your 3 turn Anchor?

 

[moray]

picture please?

I terminate my rope with a sewn eye termination, consisting of a steel rope thimble, sewn eye termination (like the petzl lanyards) covered with a siezing whipping, (both the sewn and siezing whipping are 100lb test polyester sailcord), and finally everything is covered with 2mm thick industrial shrinktrubing to protect the cord form abrasion.

Any chance you could show a picture of your sewn-eye termination? Sounds cool.

 

[Tom_Scheller]

Girth Hitch

So... am I a moron for just girth hitching spiced ends to snaps and biners?

TS

 

[emr]

Not a moron, I am just too cheap to pay for eye splice, and to scared to learn for myself.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

So... am I a moron for just girth hitching spiced ends to snaps and biners?

TS

You're ok with the snap, it's just expensive and ends up being as big as a knot. The biner is a problem, it's not ANSI compliant, or safe, because it doesn't stay cinched on the biner.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i guess a 3Turn Anchor would be a Double Anchor; if Anchor is based on Round Turn sitting on own bootstrap; then Dble Round Turn (3 Turns) would be Double Anchor(?).

This animation starts off with the Halyard (or at least the version i find most consistent/ correct); then Dbl. Anchor. Goes on to show the relationship between Overhand Knot, Strangle, Anchor, Halyard etc. The slider is draggable; some logistics problems, but fairly smooth. Can enlarge to full screen with no quality loss; can even right click and zoom in for 10 or so levels.

i'd like to see SRT's science; but don't think Bitters seized with thread on outside and a steel thimble inside are conducive to hitch cinching up on krab.

 

[emr]

thanks for the animation, i think i will try it out.

 

[knudeNoggin]

I terminate my rope with a sewn eye ...protect the cord form abrasion. ... broke at 6900lbs, and NOT at the sewn part but at the rope above the sewn eye.

Good show!
How far above the sewing/seizing did it break?

*kN*

 

[SRT-Tech]

i covered the sewn eye with a siezing whipping, then another layer of siezing whipping, using 100lb test polyester sailthread (Petzl only uses 10 lb test poly thread). I then placed a sleeve of 2mm THICK lowtemp shrinktubing to protect the whipping. Broke at 6900lbs pull about 3" above the entire sewn/whipped area.

my next one had a steel rope thimble and looks incredible (pics soon) and works great.

 

[SRT-Tech]

Any chance you could show a picture of your sewn-eye termination? Sounds cool.

i gotta find a camera to boorw, but yes i will post pics soon

 

[046]

nice job animating!

how do you do that?

i guess a 3Turn Anchor would be a Double Anchor; if Anchor is based on Round Turn sitting on own bootstrap; then Dble Round Turn (3 Turns) would be Double Anchor(?).

This animation starts off with the Halyard (or at least the version i find most consistent/ correct); then Dbl. Anchor. Goes on to show the relationship between Overhand Knot, Strangle, Anchor, Halyard etc. The slider is draggable; some logistics problems, but fairly smooth. Can enlarge to full screen with no quality loss; can even right click and zoom in for 10 or so levels.

i'd like to see SRT's science; but don't think Bitters seized with thread on outside and a steel thimble inside are conducive to hitch cinching up on krab.

 

[SRT-Tech]

i'd like to see SRT's science; but don't think Bitters seized with thread on outside and a steel thimble inside are conducive to hitch cinching up on krab.

huh?

i thinkyou might have misunderstood what i did. There is NO cinching up onto a carabiner.

I did a sewn eye termination, just like PETZL does on all their lanyard end and many rope companies on their rope ends (see pic).

i then did a siezing whip to COVER the sewn termination, then another siezing whip just for kicks and giggles, then the entire works was coverd with two layers of industrial low temp shrink tube to protect from abrasion (just like Petzl does).

however instead of using 10lb test poly thread , i used 100lb test polyester sailthread, for both the sewn portion, the siezing and the whipped covering. The thimble does'nt move, it is stationary, held extremely tight inside the sewn eye.

(the photos are from Petzls website, when i get access to a camera i will post my rope end.)

 

[NickfromWI]

I know there are a few ADVANTAGES to using splices as well but spending the time to tie a simple knot and slightly less bulk aren't compelling enough to switch over for me personally at this time. And this is coming from someone who has never used splices, please someone correct me if I'm wrong...they do cinch...highly inspectable...bombproof...whatever it may be.

MM, am I that 'old school' for using a blakes hitch to work off? Is the VT good for working the tree with? Is there an even more efficient/effective friction hitch? Thanks in advance.

An eye splice in a climbing line won't cinch, but if done properly, it won't slide around the biner, either. I use a tiny eye on mine, and it does NOT slip around the carabiner.

As far as inspectability, you just have to inspect that that haven't cut any fibers of the rope near the splice. You can't "back up" a splice. You don't HAVE to back it up. If done properly, you don't even have to think about the splice.

For me, the front of my harness is some high-value real estate. There always isn't room for everything. This is not the place to be cluttering up with bulky knots and backup knots.

No not can come close in strength retention to a splice.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum....I only use knots when I don't have spliced pieces available.

love
nick