Test! Select the correct backcut...

[Gologit]

that all depends on location. you guys out west dont use much other than the humbolt, while you would see very very few of those up here in the north east. most notches your going to see are the open faced, or conventional, and a boring back cut to go with it. thats the way the GOL is teaching, and also CLP classes.

The main reason for the Humboldt in production cutting is to maximize the scale. Other kinds of undercuts might work better in individual situations but we're used to the Humboldt and know how to finess it to get our lay and save out as much wood as possible. Logging is about production. It might be nice to have the time to turn timber falling into some kind of art form but our main focus is getting a lot of wood on the ground...safely and effeciently.

That GOL stuff is fine I guess but they seem to teach that if you just follow all their rules and procedures the tree is guaranteed to do exactly what you want it to do every time and without exception. Thats foolish thinking...and damned dangerous besides. Trees don't go to school and they don't read books and they're sure as hell not impressed by a lot of technical thinking and fancy procedures. They'll do what weight and gravity and force tell them to do. Most of the time. For the other times, stay light on your feet and be ready to scramble. That GOL book won't do you a lot of good when it's smashed, along with you, under a tree. Read your lean, watch the wind, watch the lay, don't run out of gas in the back-cut, and have a pocket full of wedges ready. And don't be ashamed to run like hell if the situation calls for it.

 

[2dogs]

That GOL stuff is fine I guess but they seem to teach that if you just follow all their rules and procedures the tree is guaranteed to do exactly what you want it to do every time and without exception. Thats foolish thinking...and damned dangerous besides. Trees don't go to school and they don't read books and they're sure as hell not impressed by a lot of technical thinking and fancy procedures. They'll do what weight and gravity and force tell them to do. Most of the time. For the other times, stay light on your feet and be ready to scramble. That GOL book won't do you a lot of good when it's smashed, along with you, under a tree. Read your lean, watch the wind, watch the lay, don't run out of gas in the back-cut, and have a pocket full of wedges ready. And don't be ashamed to run like hell if the situation calls for it.

In the GOL training are you supposed to make an open face notch in 3' or 4' DBH trees? How about on steep ground? I think that notch would leave a too high of a stump when the unit is steep. If you don't read each tree you will end up in trouble regardless of method.

 

[Gologit]

In the GOL training are you supposed to make an open face notch in 3' or 4' DBH trees? How about on steep ground? I think that notch would leave a too high of a stump when the unit is steep. If you don't read each tree you will end up in trouble regardless of method.

:agree2: I've never read the literature or taken the course but I've talked to some people who have. Maybe "listened to peple who have" would be a better choice of words.

It's almost like some wierd form of religion. They get kind of glassy-eyed and start talking faster and waving their arms and their voice goes up an octave or two. They take GOL very seriously and will allow no criticism of their education, techniques, or results. If you question them on anything GOL teaches they fall back on "Well, if it wasn't right GOL wouldn't teach it that way". Kinda reminds me of Jehova's Witnesses... with chainsaws.

During the fires I needed a couple of guys to brush out a road for me so I "borrowed" a couple of kids from a thinning crew. I talked to them and they both could run saw and both had taken the GOL course. Their supervisor confirmed this.

They were a disaster. They were either hung up, broke down, or dropping stuff across the road. They couldn't keep a good distance apart and they were slower than any two young healthy guys ought to be. I tried a couple of times, while cutting them out of a bind, or reminding them that the ROPS on the Cat could only take so much falling weight, to show them a better way but I think GOL had stolen their minds. Trying to re-educate them made them nervous and yelling at them just confused them.

I settled for watching them extra close, falling the tricky stuff myself, and getting them back to their thinning crew in one piece. Their incompetence and ignorance didn't bother me but their total unwillingness to accept anything but GOL scared me. Every other sentence started with."Well, GOL taught us"......I think that was when the yelling started.

 

[joesawer]

:agree2: I've never read the literature or taken the course but I've talked to some people who have. Maybe "listened to peple who have" would be a better choice of words.

It's almost like some wierd form of religion. They get kind of glassy-eyed and start talking faster and waving their arms and their voice goes up an octave or two. They take GOL very seriously and will allow no criticism of their education, techniques, or results. If you question them on anything GOL teaches they fall back on "Well, if it wasn't right GOL wouldn't teach it that way". Kinda reminds me of Jehova's Witnesses... with chainsaws.

LOL........... Very well said.

 

[treegal1]

In my mind there are a few ways to do it and there are a few ways to do it CORRECTLY and SAFELY. the underlying message that I take away from this thread is that,

1) you need to have proper regionally specific training, and safety awareness.
2) not all trees are the same. go figure.LOL
3) that expertise and understanding will prevail.
4) situational awareness needs to be taught to some more people, before they pick up a saw!LOLOL

 

[hammerlogging]

Knowing GOL technique has nothing to do with experience and judgement. If people are getting that confused in the course, if a novice faller is walking out of the course thinking they are ready for anything, the course is doing them a real disservice. It helped me refine some skills- for instance evaluating exactly how much side lean my hinge can support (most of the time), but I was alreday an experienced faller. Light on your feet, behave nonchalant, but in your head 140%, thats my style.

I understand why ya'll are annoyed by the preacher types.... perhaps its a west cost issue... thats one of the reasons the wife and I moved back to the south.... everbody ("progressives") knowing whats right. Yes, I did shut my dog in my camper in the shade on a 68 degree day for thirty minutes lady, and no I don't feel bad about it..... But I know there are lots of real down to earth west coasters out there, but man, some opinions are out there too.

 

[woodguy105]

I took GOL- 1 a beginners course a couple of years ago.Great course for me... Besides the whole bore cut thing, I learned an awful lot about judging trees and general safety in the woods. It gave me confidence but also increased my respect for chainsaws and the power of a falling tree.

I also enjoy reading and re reading The Fundamentals of General Tree Work by Jerry (G.F.) Beranek. along with other books on the subject ( mind you there are HUGE trees in that book).

Speaking for myself, a home heating wood cutter who fells a few good sized oaks a year... I want to know lots of ways to do things. If it means roping off, using a wedge (s) or whatever. As long as I make in for dinner in one piece.

 

[Moss Man]

Two words....bore cut

 

[joesawer]

Two words....bore cut

Two words come to mind......... But they are not nice, so I will leave them unsaid.
Any one who tries to use a bore cut for more than ocassional heavy leaners is not even a rookie in my book.

 

[Moss Man]

Two words come to mind......... But they are not nice, so I will leave them unsaid.
Any one who tries to use a bore cut for more than ocassional heavy leaners is not even a rookie in my book.

In the CPL class here, the bore cut is used for more than the leaners. Just repeating what I was taught. Actually I am less than a rookie tree feller, I'm the fella that processes them into firewood after they are felled by professionals!

Speak your two words, it'll take more than that to bother me my friend.

 

[joesawer]

In the CPL class here, the bore cut is used for more than the leaners. Just repeating what I was taught. Actually I am less than a rookie tree feller, I'm the fella that processes them into firewood after they are felled by professionals!

Speak your two words, it'll take more than that to bother me my friend.

Rep to you for being a good sport!
Your statement is a prime example of what bothers me about this whole bore cut trend.
It is being taught as a way to make a hinge that you are completely committed to, then trip the tree. There is no way to read what the tree is doing or needs as you create the hinge. Imo it is a crutch to cover poor skills. Not to mention it is slow, overly complicated, and generally ineffecient. But it is really "cool" and "trendy" and has a lot of "Wow" factor.

 

[rbtree]

Rep to you for being a good sport!
Your statement is a prime example of what bothers me about this whole bore cut trend.
It is being taught as a way to make a hinge that you are completely committed to, then trip the tree. There is no way to read what the tree is doing or needs as you create the hinge. Imo it is a crutch to cover poor skills. Not to mention it is slow, overly complicated, and generally ineffecient. But it is really "cool" and "trendy" and has a lot of "Wow" factor.

roger that!!! First heard about bore cutting danged near every tree from the Arbormaster training guys who are east coast based..... thought it was a total waste of time, and made little or no sense---and still do.

Oh, and the same goes for 70-90 degree open faces. I'm an arborist, not a logger/faller, but do cut a few trees, and seldom bother with cutting anything over 60 degrees...and 30-45 is more common. We did want this tree to stay on the stump and not deviate more than a foot from its gun, as the consequences of it being off would have been, uhh, rather bad....2/3 of the way through the video, for those of you who haven't seen it:
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[slowp]

I am Not No WAY no how a faller, but I work with and around them. There is one kind of cut, that nobody talks about, and that I've been told is the way a problem tree is going to be cut, and that is, ".....then I'm going to run like hell." It seems that the run like hell cut is used every once in a while and planned for with escape routes groomed or an excellent already existing escape route. Does the GOL teach the run like hell method? And don't talk about bringing in equipment. It isn't an option on steep ground, or in the road right of way on steep ground. In fact, I didn't mark a big bear trap once because I figured they'd want to pull it over when building the road, and the head cutter got me and insisted I mark it. He then "Cut a little on this side, cut a little on that side, ...and ran like hell." I always find myself thinking, "Please don't stumble or trip either."

Escape routes....don't forget them. And have a big bag of tricks. And be nice to the sale administrator. I think she's had too much coffee this morning.

 

[hammerlogging]

No, no run like hell in GOL. they only do the 15' careful 45 degree escape route. But as in all things in life, there are exceptions. But, yes, definately a technique. Hmmm, like say if there's 2 trees leaning in the one you're cutting (hopefully you didn't put there yourself). Or say a whole top ancient hanger in the tree you're cutting. Sometimes a whole old hanger stradling the tree your cuttting and the one behind you. Yeah, I'd say in my experience its usually with big hangers already in there that make you do the run like hell approach.

Then there's the what the hell is this tree gonna do situation. For instance, a giant wolfy tree, hollow, huge crown, etc.... You've got to cut it, thats the job. So you have escape route 1a, and 1b, then you have route 1c, in case all hell breaks loose- this escape route could be in the direction of the intended fell, cause nomatter how good you are, there are trees you know are so dangerous that you knwo to expect the unexpected.. And yes, these situations call for attention to details, like checking the boot laces, and a hair bit more escape route grooming, including grooming atleast routes 1 and 1b.

Sometimes these trees cannot be cut. Sometimes one cutter doesn't feel up to it and another will, and the next go round its the other way around. Trust your gut. Don't die.

The worst is when there is basically no way to escape. Like, none. Trapped in a bit of a hole, whether surrounded by rocks, a wierd contour. You could scramble but you'd be better off just really planning the perfect drop cause thats all you can hope for. Last time I tried this situation at the end of the day in the pouring rain was nearly the last time I cut, just cause I didn't want to crawl through the tops to get back there the next day. Better save these for the morning, in good conditions.

 

[Billy_Bob]

I read somewhere that most felling accidents were within 15 ft of the tree. So seems to me that "running like hell" once the tree begins to fall is a good idea!

And I am no dummy... I also read that most traffic accidents were within 10 miles of my home. So I moved away from there!

 

[GASoline71]

roger that!!! First heard about bore cutting danged near every tree from the Arbormaster training guys who are east coast based..... thought it was a total waste of time, and made little or no sense---and still do.

Oh, and the same goes for 70-90 degree open faces. I'm an arborist, not a logger/faller, but do cut a few trees, and seldom bother with cutting anything over 60 degrees...and 30-45 is more common. We did want this tree to stay on the stump and not deviate more than a foot from its gun, as the consequences of it being off would have been, uhh, rather bad....2/3 of the way through the video, for those of you who haven't seen it:

David Stice is one of the best timber fallers on the planet in my book. "Nice Guy Dave" ranks right up there with Gerry Beranek. Simply amazing some of the fallin' jobs he has done here...

Good vid and great post Dodger...

Gary

 

[oldirty]

David Stice is one of the best timber fallers on the planet in my book. "Nice Guy Dave" ranks right up there with Gerry Beranek. Simply amazing some of the fallin' jobs he has done here...

Good vid and great post Dodger...

Gary

he doesnt know it but mr Beranek is my hero.

 

[joesawer]

I am Not No WAY no how a faller, but I work with and around them. There is one kind of cut, that nobody talks about, and that I've been told is the way a problem tree is going to be cut, and that is, ".....then I'm going to run like hell." It seems that the run like hell cut is used every once in a while and planned for with escape routes groomed or an excellent already existing escape route. Does the GOL teach the run like hell method? And don't talk about bringing in equipment. It isn't an option on steep ground, or in the road right of way on steep ground. In fact, I didn't mark a big bear trap once because I figured they'd want to pull it over when building the road, and the head cutter got me and insisted I mark it. He then "Cut a little on this side, cut a little on that side, ...and ran like hell." I always find myself thinking, "Please don't stumble or trip either."

Escape routes....don't forget them. And have a big bag of tricks. And be nice to the sale administrator. I think she's had too much coffee this morning.

Good point. The run like hell method is a viable option, if it is part of the plan before the tree is cut. If it is an option after something goes wrong, it is often too late. Twice in my life I have tried the run like hell technique after things went wrong. It didn't work either time. I was fortunate to avoid serious injury or death.
I want to see some one use the bore cut on trees like these. These where both fell away from thier lean.

 

[hammerlogging]

Even in the rare run like hell routine, 9 times out of 10 or more, still using the bore cut, cause its heavy topped hardwood, and the tree isn't starting to fall till your really in position to escape. No reason you couldn't bore any of those, but you don't need too cause they're still pretty straight up and down. Just different timber. but looks like good work!

 

[slowp]

A guy who helps train Class C--Over 24 inches dbh, fallers cut this. I believe it may have been a run or at least saunter like hell tree. I wasn't there but here is one escape path. There was another path going the other way too.

Here is the aftermath. The snag was 11 feet dbh.