The 576 XP, wow

[dingeryote]

i'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. technology is good, but new engineering has that pesky habit of being implemented long before its perfected, or even achieved reliability.

the fact that every dealer seems to be unable to get answers about this P.O.S. has alarm bells ringing. the last thing a faller needs is some stupid sensor to rattle off while he's in the middle of a dangerous situation with snags or technical falling, all in the name of improved fuel efficiency. i'll carry a few extra litres of gas with a smile on my face rather than run a 576.

Just like with the early auto efforts in the 80's, it's not a bad plan to wait a couple years for the eggheads to realize they screwed up, and get things right.

I see an increased demand for current non strato and Non-computerized saw parts in the future.

The concept of computer contolls on what should be an anvil, is contradictory in nature, and it will take a couple evolutions to get the bugs out.
Untill then I'll run a Mac 10-10 if I have to.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[peter399]

yeeeezzzz .. I know you Americans are very reluctant against anything new but this is far beyond my expectations Maybe you should consider why all your sawmills are shutting down. Answer is that they are not competitive compared to saw mills in scandinavia and Germany. Same thing averywhere, look at a Mack truck and a Volvo Truck. The Mack truck is stone age technology compared to a Volvo, still you use them. Result is less productivity, higher fuel consumption and once again, you will loose to the rest of world, bringing you even deeper into the recession. Look what happened to your ol' chainsaw brands who gut crushed by Stihl and Husky in a very short time for not heading for new technology. It sucks, I know, I would also want things to be as they have always been but this is the way things are. Better throw those Tach's away soon and diagnose your saw over a serial interface using you laptop.

Electronics can be made extremely reliable which is why electronics is steering the aircraft with hundreds of people inside, 30000 ft up in the air.

 

[weimedog]

i'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. technology is good, but new engineering has that pesky habit of being implemented long before its perfected, or even achieved reliability.

the fact that every dealer seems to be unable to get answers about this P.O.S. has alarm bells ringing. the last thing a faller needs is some stupid sensor to rattle off while he's in the middle of a dangerous situation with snags or technical falling, all in the name of improved fuel efficiency. i'll carry a few extra litres of gas with a smile on my face rather than run a 576.

All I heard so far is that the dealer has to do an initiation process to get the system configured....the reliability wasn't questioned. I also suspect that "back in the day" dealers took a little time to tune saws as well, just the proceedure was twisting a screw driver then.

Most of the "EPA" saws come from the factory lean. I can't count how many times I have read about breaking out limiters...the potential gains with these management systems are an untapped opportunity for performance saw types just as they are for performance motorcycles. Quads, and Cars. Get over it..

 

[dingeryote]

yeeeezzzz .. I know you Americans are very reluctant against anything new but this is far beyond my expectations Maybe you should consider why all your sawmills are shutting down. Answer is that they are not competitive compared to saw mills in scandinavia and Germany. Same thing averywhere, look at a Mack truck and a Volvo Truck. The Mack truck is stone age technology compared to a Volvo, still you use them. Result is less productivity, higher fuel consumption and once again, you will loose to the rest of world, bringing you even deeper into the recession. Look what happened to your ol' chainsaw brands who gut crushed by Stihl and Husky in a very short time for not heading for new technology. It sucks, I know, I would also want things to be as they have always been but this is the way things are. Better throw those Tach's away soon and diagnose your saw over a serial interface using you laptop.

Electronics can be made extremely reliable which is why electronics is steering the aircraft with hundreds of people inside, 30000 ft up in the air.

The Mills are closing because of nobody buying lumber.
Volvo's are nice, but wont pull a Fat broad out of a doughnut shop, and cost too much.
Humping around a lap top with the wedges and spare chains sounds like a silly thing to do, do you plan on cutting wood in central park where your saw can get a wifi connection for updates while cutting?

Those airplanes seem to drop outta the sky for no reason, and fly into the earth while telling the pilot everything is OK.

Good luck with all that.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[weimedog]

yeeeezzzz .. not competitive compared to saw mills in scandinavia and Germany. Same thing averywhere, look at a Mack truck and a Volvo Truck. The Mack truck is stone age technology compared to a Volvo, still you use them.


Electronics can be made extremely reliable which is why electronics is steering the aircraft with hundreds of people inside, 30000 ft up in the air.

I drive something made by Volvo, trucks and equipment (Loader & or Grader) everyday. I also know Macks...you obviously are clueless on this one. Technology for the sake of technology isn't a plus. Solid engineering is. Macks are as solid as trucks get. Have been for years. Yet again why I mentioned in a POLITICAL forum why Americans shouldn't pay much attention to those who don't have our best interest at heart and/or have some jeolousy chip on their shoulder. As far as technology is concerned..you mentioned airplanes, show me something that is in the same league as the F-22 or even F-35 from where ever you are posting from. This entire "who's measuring stick is larger" tone needs to be in another forum. Political possibly.

Back to saws. One thing you need to realise is US Americans have histoically embraced technology when its a "plus", must be one of the reasons Stihl is number one. (Couldn't resist)

 

[peter399]

As far as technology is concerned..you mentioned airplanes, show me something that is in the same league as the F-22 or even F-35 from where ever you are posting from. This entire "who's measuring stick is larger" tone needs to be in another forum. Political possibly.

Back to saws. One thing you need to realise is US Americans have histoically embraced technology when its a "plus", must be one of the reasons Stihl is number one. (Couldn'r resist)

of course you have NASA, some fancy fighter jets and all that stuff.
(No wonder with a national budget deficit of $10.7 trillion by December 2008. Couldn't resist that one..)

But I'm talking about the broad public.

I mean, what you really want to do is BBQ in the backyard slicing some cookies in the mean time with your old torquey McCulloch watching your F250 parked in front of the garage door, isn't it ?

Sounds tempting, maybe I should cross the pond. I still have the invitation to Tommie's shed :chainsawguy:.

And hey, no politics, all in fun!

 

[weimedog]

of course you have NASA, some fancy fighter jets and all that stuff.
(No wonder with a national budget deficit of $10.7 trillion by December 2008. Couldn't resist that one..)

But I'm talking about the broad public.

:chainsawguy:.

And hey, no politics, all in fun!

Yea I know..I'm holding my (Swedish ethic mostly) tongue..memory still serves me well at my age. I remember the entire micro electronics revolution, the workstation thu PC industry and the "silicon valley" industries that revolutionized how you and I are communicating today. Some have a short memory...and much of this technology was funded on a US Military dime and then was spun off into the general public (I was there). So take a shot at the deficit as you bask in the safety net bought by it and the toys inovated by it and the fact that we are the only one in this world willing to take on the extreemist that started attacking us by dropping airliners while the rest of the world just let things happen, we acted;...then critize us for dealing with the problem! (loosing our sons and daughters to make yours safe in the future..yet again) So your premis might work with Al Gore educated Americans and Euro's but not someone who was in the thick of this technology revolution we all benifit from now, and has two sons who have put time over in the middle east.

Anyway..this doesn't belong here..sorry.

I happen to embrace the Husqvarna and Stihl attempts to solve political generated technical problems and...ultimately the solutions that are emerging are really cool and exciting itterations of now old and proven concepts developed in other industrys...and I applaud Husqvarna for having the foresight to (yet again) purchase technology from places like Japan (Redmax) to make a stab at both producing better saws and meet the new regulations.

I just hope the thread move away from this direction to one that discusses how to morph these systems to a more open arcitecture to allow mechanical saw mods to be augmented with engine controls...like in other motorsports. I watch a person with a "Hot" saw have to use a baby bottle to dump a little fuel in the carb to get it started...this technology has the potential to eliminate those type of inconvieniences...we should embrace not trash it! I think Husqvarna should be appauded and supported by us who are more saw "geeks" than pro's to help develop this more. AND remember this is a solution that doesn't add tremendous weight..the 800lbs gorilla in the saw design world.

 

[joatmon]

of course you have NASA, some fancy fighter jets and all that stuff.
(No wonder with a national budget deficit of $10.7 trillion by December 2008. Couldn't resist that one..)

But I'm talking about the broad public.

I mean, what you really want to do is BBQ in the backyard slicing some cookies in the mean time with your old torquey McCulloch watching your F250 parked in front of the garage door, isn't it ?

Sounds tempting, maybe I should cross the pond. I still have the invitation to Tommie's shed :chainsawguy:.

And hey, no politics, all in fun!

Peter,

If you ever get across the pond, and to SC in particular, it's game on. You're invited. Here's what's in store:

I'll fire up the grill. I use old fashioned charcoal as Henry Ford intended. We'll have beef steak, pork ribs or salmon. Your call.

Then we'll cut a few cookies. I've got an old Mac we can use, a SP125c. Then, we'll cut a few with the Stihl MS660. I've saved the best for last, the 390XP. When our strength is sapped, we'll use the NE346XP with 3/8" square chisel. I'll bet it will make you smile.

Now, all I have is an X5 and a 4Runner, so, no big F-250. I will arrange for one if it would make your visit complete.

I await your instructions,

ole joat

 

[gallegosmike]

yeeeezzzz .. I know you Americans are very reluctant against anything new but this is far beyond my expectations Maybe you should consider why all your sawmills are shutting down. Answer is that they are not competitive compared to saw mills in scandinavia and Germany. Same thing averywhere, look at a Mack truck and a Volvo Truck. The Mack truck is stone age technology compared to a Volvo, still you use them. Result is less productivity, higher fuel consumption and once again, you will loose to the rest of world, bringing you even deeper into the recession. Look what happened to your ol' chainsaw brands who gut crushed by Stihl and Husky in a very short time for not heading for new technology. It sucks, I know, I would also want things to be as they have always been but this is the way things are. Better throw those Tach's away soon and diagnose your saw over a serial interface using you laptop.

Electronics can be made extremely reliable which is why electronics is steering the aircraft with hundreds of people inside, 30000 ft up in the air.

Where have you been in the last five years? Serial interface has been dead for awhile.

Which volvo truck are talking about? The european version is different from the USA version . I cant speak about mack truck diesels, but IC diesels are sweet running engines and pretty reliable. All of are fleet is IC powered! Most of are new(last 3yrs) IC's could chase down most of pickups and economy cars on the road right now! A 14 ton to 30 ton vehicle should not be that fast!

Are wood mills are being shut down because of the lack of new construction, not for being uncompetitive. Plus misinformed tree huggers trying to force their ways on all of us. In the southwest where I live, they succeed in forcing the federal government to stop all logging. Also, in north america, there is no market for wood products right now. Only wood products going out of the states right is whole logs to asia.

 

[peter399]

Peter,

If you ever get across the pond, and to SC in particular, it's game on. You're invited. Here's what's in store:

I'll fire up the grill. I use old fashioned charcoal as Henry Ford intended. We'll have beef steak, pork ribs or salmon. Your call.

Then we'll cut a few cookies. I've got an old Mac we can use, a SP125c. Then, we'll cut a few with the Stihl MS660. I've saved the best for last, the 390XP. When our strength is sapped, we'll use the NE346XP with 3/8" square chisel. I'll bet it will make you smile.

Now, all I have is an X5 and a 4Runner, so, no big F-250. I will arrange for one if it would make your visit complete.

I await your instructions,

ole joat

Ahhh , Joat, you are teasing my senses. Add some Budwiser to that agenda and I should seriously consider to cross the pond.. And what an end of the day, 346 with 3/8 square chisel... You think I could bring my 2171 in the hand luggage ?

Same for you, if you ever get it to Sweden (Nobel price maybe? ), you're invited. We will have some real beer and smoked elk heart in the Sauna as a starter. First competition will be who can run the most laps around the house in the snow before entering the sauna again. You can try my 353, 346 and 2171 and if you are a really really nice guy, you can try my 262

 

[gallegosmike]

Yea I know..I'm holding my (Swedish ethic mostly) tongue..memory still serves me well at my age. I remember the entire micro electronics revolution, the workstation thu PC industry and the "silicon valley" industries that revolutionized how you and I are communicating today. Some have a short memory...and much of this technology was funded on a US Military dime and then was spun off into the general public (I was there). So take a shot at the deficit as you bask in the safety net bought by it and the toys inovated by it and the fact that we are the only one in this world willing to take on the extreemist that started attacking us by dropping airliners while the rest of the world just let things happen, we acted;...then critize us for dealing with the problem! (loosing our sons and daughters to make yours safe in the future..yet again) So your premis might work with Al Gore educated Americans and Euro's but not someone who was in the thick of this technology revolution we all benifit from now, and has two sons who have put time over in the middle east.

Anyway..this doesn't belong here..sorry.

I happen to embrace the Husqvarna and Stihl attempts to solve political generated technical problems and...ultimately the solutions that are emerging are really cool and exciting itterations of now old and proven concepts developed in other industrys...and I applaud Husqvarna for having the foresight to (yet again) purchase technology from places like Japan (Redmax) to make a stab at both producing better saws and meet the new regulations.

I just hope the thread move away from this direction to one that discusses how to morph these systems to a more open arcitecture to allow mechanical saw mods to be augmented with engine controls...like in other motorsports. I watch a person with a "Hot" saw have to use a baby bottle to dump a little fuel in the carb to get it started...this technology has the potential to eliminate those type of inconvieniences...we should embrace not trash it! I think Husqvarna should be appauded and supported by us who are more saw "geeks" than pro's to help develop this more. AND remember this is a solution that doesn't add tremendous weight..the 800lbs gorilla in the saw design world.

I hate carbs on vehicles, period... On ope, I can live with them. I would like to see fuel injection on ope that did not add weight. And I mean true fuel injection, not the semi-feed back carbs on ms-280 and 576xp. You can mold polymer lithium ion batteries in any shape. So that solves the battery problem and it would not be to hard to build a small, light weight high presure fuel pump. Direct injection would clean up a 2 stroke saw big time! So why cant husky or stihl put it off???

 

[Hddnis]

I hate carbs on vehicles, period... On ope, I can live with them. I would like to see fuel injection on ope that did not add weight. And I mean true fuel injection, not the semi-feed back carbs on ms-280 and 576xp. You can mold polymer lithium ion batteries in any shape. So that solves the battery problem and it would not be to hard to build a small, light weight high presure fuel pump. Direct injection would clean up a 2 stroke saw big time! So why cant husky or stihl put it off???

One reason would seem to be that the bottom end would lose lubrication and then reliability would go way down.



Mr. HE

 

[drkptt]

I hate carbs on vehicles, period... On ope, I can live with them. I would like to see fuel injection on ope that did not add weight. And I mean true fuel injection, not the semi-feed back carbs on ms-280 and 576xp. You can mold polymer lithium ion batteries in any shape. So that solves the battery problem and it would not be to hard to build a small, light weight high presure fuel pump. Direct injection would clean up a 2 stroke saw big time! So why cant husky or stihl put it off???

You're probably not going to see direct cylinder injection on a saw in your lifetime. Look at the cost and complexity of DI on an outboard motor. A saw engine demands much higher performance--more precise fuel flow at twice the speed. Half the time available to spray and vaporize the fuel--so you need pumps and injectors that exceed anything on the market today and at a fraction of the price.

Saws are meeting present and proposed emission regs now; the only reason manufacturers are going to spend tens of millions of dollars developing new technology is if the regs become a lot tighter.

 

[weimedog]

I hate carbs on vehicles, period... On ope, I can live with them. I would like to see fuel injection on ope that did not add weight. And I mean true fuel injection, not the semi-feed back carbs on ms-280 and 576xp. You can mold polymer lithium ion batteries in any shape. So that solves the battery problem and it would not be to hard to build a small, light weight high presure fuel pump. Direct injection would clean up a 2 stroke saw big time! So why cant husky or stihl put it off???

The new motocrossers have fuel injection powered directly from the coils, with no battery. They may have a small capaciter somewhere in the molded control unit but no more batteries. Took two generations of fuel injection to get there.

(The next post had to do with lubrication) I don't see why thats a problem. With a start up proceedeure mapped properly...,maybe an extra squirt of two..but why would that be a issue? You wouldn't do a four stroke style direct injection into the chamber anyway. It would a more conventional fuel injection some where in the intake track.

 

[Under_Pressure]

The new motocrossers have fuel injection powered directly from the coils, with no battery. They may have a small capaciter somewhere in the molded control unit but no more batteries. Took two generations of fuel injection to get there.

(The next post had to do with lubrication) I don't see why thats a problem. With a start up proceedeure mapped properly...,maybe an extra squirt of two..but why would that be a issue? You wouldn't do a four stroke style direct injection into the chamber anyway. It would a more conventional fuel injection some where in the intake track.

Arcitc Cat came out with something like that (batteryless EFI) 10+ years ago on snowmobiles. It must have had a capacitor, as when starting cold it took one or two pulls to build up a charge to run the fuel pump and then it would start on the next pull. When warm, it started right away. Haven't kept up with sleds recently to know if it's still the hot ticket or not.

Direct injection is the Holy Grail for two strokes because with the exahust & intake stroke being the same, you always get a bit of unburned fuel escaping with the exhaust if you are getting decent cylinder evacuation. With DI, you are only bringing in air with no fuel, so it doesn't matter if you get some bypass with the intake charge. The fuel doesn't enter the equation until the ports are closed (or milliseconds before). The problem is you have to get fuel under extremely high pressure into the combustion chamber in a fraction of a second. That's tough enough to do on a four stroke or larger (snowmobile, etc.) two stroke, much less a saw with extremely limited weight and bulk in which to put the components necessary to make that happen. If someone could get it to work, they would rule the world.

As for bottom end lube, didn't Honda have a 4 stroke trimmer engine that used an impeller of some sort to essentially turned a small amount of oil in the crankcase to a mist that lubricated everything? Seems to me something like that could work. You could probably reduce the amount of oil mixed with the gas quite a bit as well.

I'm not sure how much difference fuel injection used the traditional way (i.e. running the air/fuel mix through the crankcase and into the cylinder) would really make in terms of emissions on an EPA test. It would help some I'm sure, but I think these carbs on a small single cylinder engine are pretty darn close to perfect when properly set up. And I'm assuming that on an EPA test, they are set to absolute optimum. The bigger advantage seems like it would be for the consumer who wouldn't have to worry about the carb being adjusted correctly for altitude and temp.

I'm no expert- just some thoughts.

 

[weimedog]

Of course Yamaha motorcycles of the 1970's had "Yamalube" oil injection systems to lube the motor and you ran straight gas in the tank with a little (And I mean LITTLE) oil tank used for lubrication system separate. So what would that look like on a saw...direct injection fuel delivery with a gas tank, chain/bar oil tank, and yet another hole to fill with two stroke oil.

 

[Chesterewers]

And just how many folks are gonna have a log big enuff to bury that thing for "two to five minutes"? Get real.

right but I bet if you put in a really dull chain and try to make a rip down a log it would be like that? Just use an old bar too cause it will probably be all around bad, not a likable sounding saw there.

 

[SawTroll]

Like it or hate it the EPA actually pushes many technology forward, and I have no problem with that. The problem is the learning curve.

Yes, and it looks like Husky is well in front of Stihl in that regard, by now - but the 576 is a first generation strato, like all the Stihl ones.....

 

[mikefunaro]

Yes, and it looks like Husky is well in front of Stihl in that regard, by now - but the 576 is a first generation strato, like all the Stihl ones.....

It's like a 1.5 generation saw....lesbihonest. They had the first flub with the 575

To give credit where credit's due, stihls 441 went over a little better than the 575.

 

[Officer's Match]

Yes, and it looks like Husky is well in front of Stihl in that regard, by now - but the 576 is a first generation strato, like all the Stihl ones.....

Well in front? I guess I don't know what you mean ST.

It's like a 1.5 generation saw....lesbihonest. They had the first flub with the 575

To give credit where credit's due, stihls 441 went over a little better than the 575.

And I think the 441 M-Tronic and the 576 AT are very comparable.