The liability insurance game: Shuck and jive and get the other guy to cover the gig!

[Sunrise Guy]

I was ready to do a big removal, a two crane gig. The tree, a fifty-plus Post Oak, 30+" DBH, had failed and fallen to a forty-five degree angle, resting across a swimming pool and on the roof of the opposite row of apartments in this complex's very small courtyard. OK, so far, so good/bad. I do work for the management/owner of this complex at other units they own all over town. I like them, they like me. Enter the crane company. They hustle the two cranes when all I wanted was one to steady the tree while I rigged it down to the empty pool. It would take longer than hauling huge limbs thirty feet over the complex roof, but it would not be quite as dangerous, if any part of the system failed. So, everyone agrees that the gig will start Wednesday. Then the trouble starts. I think, "Hmmm, the management never told me about this complex." I never saw this huge tree, less than two feet from the side of the pool. I would have told them it was an accident waiting to happen, given the cutting of major roots to put in the pool, and the complex walls and concrete walkway, less than three feet away, on the tree's other side. I would have recommended the removal of the (then) still healthy, upright tree. Now I have a very dangerous situation. Fifteen to twenty tons of wood waiting to take out more parts of this complex in addition to the chimney, railings and gutter. I want a liability waiver. The crane company was thinking the same way. They send one, too, to the management. Well, the management's insurance company says, "No way!" We want your company (mine) to be the coverage on this job. SAY WHAT??? The crane company bows out and I do the same. Good-bye $9K gig. How the heck can the owner of this complex let their insurance company make this insane demand? Will any tree company take this on using their insurance as the one covering everybody? I find that hard to believe. This tree will come to ground, fairly soon, if the winds pick up. When it does, it will destroy the pool and probably split the wall in two, totalling two apartments, if not more. Tomorrow I will meet with the management and try to get them to see that their company must cover the risks here. I'm hoping that by going the one-crane way, without lifting the tree over the complex, they will not balk at my waiver or the one crane company's, if I can find another one I trust. Check out the pics to see how this thing looks.

 

[treeman82]

I'm having a small problem with following this... there is 1 tree here, correct? The tree that you priced in the first place? Or is there a SECOND tree that you never saw????

 

[treemandan]

Oh yeah, what did you expect? You had better not do anymore damage cause then it will be your fault.

I don't know. How can you be expected to be liable for a mess like that? But you are. Amazing, ain't it?

What would the waiver disclose?

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I'm having a small problem with following this... there is 1 tree here, correct? The tree that you priced in the first place? Or is there a SECOND tree that you never saw????

One tree ,that I went to have a look at, after it failed, and then got the crane guy involved. I wanted one crane on the gig to stabilize the tree while I climbed it, rigged it and brought it down. The crane guy thought I wanted him to peter pan me, and once he got to talking about it, I thought it might be easier to go that route. The problem was that along with lifting me, the second crane was going to lift the cut limbs up and over the apartment complex. That spooked the owner. Tomorrow I will try to pitch the one crane and a simple rigging down of the tree into the courtyard.

 

[Slvrmple72]

I am amazed that they didn't take it down before the pool was put in! With thinking like that they should have put a rope swing on it over the pool and called it a day! I can see why they foolishly think you and the crane company should be holding the liability bag. Good luck with that mess!

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Oh yeah, what did you expect? You had better not do anymore damage cause then it will be your fault.

I don't know. How can you be expected to be liable for a mess like that? But you are. Amazing, ain't it?

What would the waiver disclose?

The waiver says, in essence, that since this is a very hazardous situation that pre-existed my getting involved with it, my company cannot be liable for any further damages that may occur, due to the great weight involved and the very confined area we're working in.
The management has insurance that should cover all of this stuff, but in true insurance company fashion, they want to pass the buck to me. :censored: that!

 

[Bermie]

What a mess, looks like they raised the grade as well as chopped roots...
They should back track the liability to the architect and the contractor!
Stick to your guns!

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I don't know enough about trees to comment on the danger here, but I do know enough about life to offer this bit of (borrowed) advice:


You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

One of my biggest problems with crane jobs is getting people to sign the damage waiver on the crane.

Almost every storm job i do I will state, prior to any negotiations, that we cannot be responsible for additional damage. We will take all reasonable precautions to avoid it, but safety comes before property.

I will explain that the work will not be done in a "cut and pray" manner, letting it roll off the roof, hoping nothing will happen, but sometimes that is all that can be done.

From the brief look I had of the pict's, what I might do with one crane, is lift a lot of the top brush out first. Stuff without any loading, then use it as a tie-in to rig other stuff down for future picks.

2 cranes would be so much better, if you use one for just you, then you can bring in a lighter long boom at a lower rate.

 

[Dadatwins]

Sweet mess, interesting diving board. It is hard to believe that they were able to construct the pool with tree there. I agree 100% with a crane to stabilize the load. Multiple rigging, especially at the base and slight upward tension to prevent any roll or twist. With the trunk stabile should not be a bad job to get down, just some rigging and lowering involved. No impact removal, time consuming but possible. Also agree on the waiver, don't have to tell you to take pictures of everything before and after. Be careful. and hope all the ground folks can swim Never added a life jacket to PPE requirements.

 

[pdqdl]

I don't do that many crane jobs, and you haven't commented on the capacity of the cranes, nor how close you can get.

9K sounds like a lot of money for that tree. There are a lot of unmentioned factors here, but I suspect that the insurance company figures for that kind of money, they don't want any more liability.

From the pictures it does not look like the damage to the structure is too severe. Hence, the trunk is probably still carrying most of the weight. It might rise up off the roof some when the weight is carefully removed. Most of the ones I get leaning on the house do. Now when they break and fall; that is a different story.

How much money did you hope to clear on this job? Is it worth the risk?

Every job involves risk, it is our experience that teaches us what is acceptable risk, and what is too dangerous. Quite frankly, if the method you would use is assured to cause more damage, you need to figure out a way to avoid that. If you can't, then you need to tell the owner what IS going to happen as you do the job, instead of asking them to hope it isn't too bad.

The owner and the insurance company are looking to you to be the expert, and to give them assurances that you know how to do the job. From their perspective, if you want them to give you a damage waiver, then you might not be the right man for the job.

Myself, I am inclined to buck up and take the risk in those situations. Chances are good that if you dropped a 2 ton limb through the roof, it would roll back onto your insurance, no matter how many waivers they signed.

Lawyer's have a way of making bad things happen.

 

[pdqdl]

...Be careful. and hope all the ground folks can swim Never added a life jacket to PPE requirements.

LOL. I never thought of that! It would be something to consider, though.

I'll bet that pool makes it easy to drop some of the big chunks over the water!

Oh! You had better get a "pool skimmer plugged up waiver", too. You KNOW that you'll never catch all the sawdust.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

The pool is now empty. I will have to rig down into it and then have my guys take the limbs out and to the loading area. It is going to be resurfaced after the job is completed.

The management is still gong around in circles over the crane company's waiver. I had them fax me a copy: It's four sentences long! The part that scares the manager, she totally misunderstood. It is simply a "keep your employees out of our way" clause that she is misreading as a "we won't take responsibility for anything" clause. Interestingly, my waiver is five paragraphs long and far more protective, for my company, than the crane company's waiver. The manager has no problems with my waiver. In the end, I think it's a matter of personality issues: The manager did not like the crane guy's hustle, while I get along very well with her. Time and again I'm sure we all find that many times it all comes down to personality issues when locked into bidding wars or trying to smooth out the details on a bigger, multi-sub gig.

As for the high price someone commented on: That was for the two-crane scenario. Along with the two cranes, a third crane has to come in to load the counter-weights and put the mats down. That also assumed twelve hours, with overtime. In reality, I feel the job would have taken around six hours, so the price would have come down. With the one crane set-up, I have a feeling I'll be on the job for eight hours the first day and four hours the next, without the crane being there. The price will be closer to $6K, and the manager will feel better about not having heavy wood sailing over her complex.

 

[pdqdl]

The pool is now empty. I will have to rig down into it and then have my guys take the limbs out and to the loading area. It is going to be resurfaced after the job is completed.

...The price will be closer to $6K, and the manager will feel better about not having heavy wood sailing over her complex.

I thought it would be real fun to chop logs off and let them go splash in the pool. You just ruined my image of a good time!

Nothing like a 3k price reduction to make a buyer come around, eh? How much was the big crane with setup going to charge? What was the tonnage of the crane, and how far was the reach required to get to the logs?

Curious minds would like to know.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I thought it would be real fun to chop logs off and let them go splash in the pool. You just ruined my image of a good time!

Nothing like a 3k price reduction to make a buyer come around, eh? How much was the big crane with setup going to charge? What was the tonnage of the crane, and how far was the reach required to get to the logs?

Curious minds would like to know.

I had nothing to do with the possible price reduction. The manager found another crane operator who doesn't require a waiver. Now it gets weird: The insurance company for the manager has decided to pay for everything. Now there are two cranes. The first, a 165 ton, 125' monster is supporting the tree as I type this. The insurance company wanted it, overnight, so they're paying. The other crane, a 75 ton due on-site tomorrow at 7AM, will lift all of the wood up and over the roof. I don't get to do the peter pan trip. So, I'll now treat the tree as a fairly normal take-down with the only difference being that I won't have to do much, if any, rigging. I'll sling the wood, back off the piece, cut it and watch it go up into the sky. Fun! It is odd going up over an empty pool. If I ever came down the hard way, I'd fall into negative space---ten feet below the stump. How many could ever say that---or would ever want to. The total price for this outing will be higher than the original. The big crane is staying on the site from 4PM today through completion time, tomorrow. At around $200/hr. plus gas surcharge, mats, etc., I don't even want to know what the management is paying. I'm charging $225/hr. for my time which includes my right-hand man on the ground, and hauling off the wood. Even there, the manager contacted a number of firewood places and told them she's giving out free wood. What a deal! I hope they all show up and cart everything off, making my job a bit easier. When all is said and done, if I had to guess, I would think the total bill will come out to around $10-11G's.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Now it gets weird: The insurance company for the manager has decided to pay for everything. Now there are two cranes. The first, a 165 ton, 125' monster is supporting the tree as I type this. The insurance company wanted it, overnight, so they're paying.

Nothing weird here. Somebody figured out that WAY more damage is going to happen if they leave that tree there while they d i c ker around. Some people are already displaced, and some people might already be talking about lawsuits because that tree there was a foreseeable hazard, and their lives were endangered by the management's negligence in allowing that tree to remain there with almost no root support system.

No, I'm not offering my (unqualified) opinion on the safety of the tree, I'm just seeing the angles that a lawyer or a greedy apartment dweller might see.

Think a jury wouldn't buy that story? Could they find an arborist who would testify that a tree with roots only on one side is inherently every bit as safe as a tree that has roots all around? If it's put to him on the stand just that way, with the only option being yes or no? "Mr Professional, can you tell me unequivocally, is a tree with half a root system every bit as safe as a tree with a full root system?" Who could honestly say yes?

Think a jury would need any more than that to find the management liable?

No, nothing weird here. That insurance company is seeing major liability, and they want the problem gone NOW. Maybe they got a call from somebody's lawyer, maybe some more experienced lawyer in the insurance company found out what was going on and blew a gasket. Whatever the reason, they woke up and didn't like what they saw.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

No, nothing weird here.

They finally had someone look at it and freaked.

Though it is probably too lake, have some new tarps in the pool to sling out debris and sawdust.

if the method you would use is assured to cause more damage, you need to figure out a way to avoid that.

Most of the time, but not all the time. It is raining, the roof is breached and you need to patch it !NOW! Do you wait for a load of plywood and old tires? Find a crane to come out light-up and roll out?

On a 7 pitch roof you may be stable enough in the rain to cut and roll the wood, but carry and chuck would be out of the question.

flush the stubs, if possible and roll the chunks off. Smash some bushes, ding some more gutter. If you had the presence of mind to bring some plywood with you, you may tack it down to protect the gutters...

Now if it is not a rush job, options to protect landscape, gutters and siding may exceed the cost of repair. Rent scaffolding, build or rent a debris chute...

 

[pdqdl]

I've never even heard of cutting them loose and letting a log roll off. What a fun way to get logs off a roof.

I'll be waiting for one of those jobs to come along.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Hey, there was one fellow here who recommended bombing them down on the roof, with trash bags full of leaves for cushioning.

He had a lot of other weird ideas, too. Got himself banned in fact. His, uh, methods were just a bit too reckless for the management's taste.

 

[(WLL)]

What a mess, looks like they raised the grade as well as chopped roots...
They should back track the liability to the architect and the contractor!
Stick to your guns!

i see and think the same