the spotted owl disappearing act

[forestryworks]

interesting article called, "the spotted owl disappearing act"

i linked it, as it was too long to post.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-na-spotted-owl1-2008dec01,0,4174955.story?track=rss

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I think that they were probably right about the severe logging of old growth being a big part of the problem. Just because that logging dwindled, and the spotted owl numbers are dwindling, does not mean that logging was not a big reason.

It takes decades for habitat to restore, and a mere 10 to 15 years is a drop in the bucket of time, compared to heavy logging of old growth since the 1800s.

That another owl is partly to blame is well worth studying.

But I find that these scientists get in blinders mentality that we need to see results in a short period of time. It may take 50 to 100 years to actually study this type of thing.

I suspect that scientists may need to set their sights on much bigger intervals of time to learn about this. One thing is certain, this species has not existed forever. So they must have gone from just a few to thousands at one point in history. Seems they could do it again.

I'm not aware how much old growth or second growth was in the Oregon Biscuit fire area, but the number of acres devastated by that fire were incredible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit_Fire

A fire that intense must have quite an impact on the wildlife populations for decades.

 

[Bushler]

Yes, it would be great if spotted owls lived in burnt trees. I can't remember how many billions of feet burnt during the sour bisquit fire, and its still there, rotting. I ride through the area frequently in the summer on my motorcycle. I get mad every time. That fire could have been contained when it was less than ten acres, but the eviros said nooooooo, let it burn...its the natural thing.

The winter following the fire the Chetco River ran red with mud from the burnt over watershed. Great management.

 

[redprospector]

I don't have anything against the owl's (I guess), but I do wish the so-called environmentalist would do a dissapearing act.

Andy

 

[forestryworks]

I don't have anything against the owl's (I guess), but I do wish the so-called environmentalist would do a dissapearing act.

Andy

lol :agree2:

 

[M.D. Vaden]

For a while I took a blog type page offline, which has my forest management related comments. It's sort of a blog / notepage. But I tossed it back online recently just for the heck of it.

Somewhere on the page, I wrote something to the effect that we may need extremists on both sides of the fence to neutralize each other for some middle-ground results.

Basically, I don't mind people who enjoy nature and want to protect it - it's the nature worshipper types that get under my skin a bit.

Anyhow - about owls - it was just a screech owl, but got to hold an injured one about a year ago. We took it to a recovery place for wildlife. It sure was amazingly soft.

 

[windthrown]

Well, I lived in the heart of spotted owl country for 5 years, and they were declining there becasue the barred owl is moving in on its territory, even though the old growth cutting in that area was all but non-existant (and there are many old growth stands around there). Regardless of habitat, the barred owl would have still moved into this area from the eastern US, and they would have still displaced the spotted owl's habitat even if this were all still virgin old growth forest. The barred owl is more aggressive, and more tolerant of a wider area of habitat. The barred owl will win. Even if we hunt them they will still eventually displace the spotted owl. Sometimes no matter what you do, or try to do, fate is going to run its course, regardless. Oh, and the barred owl also breeds successfully with the spotted owl. So one has to wonder what really makes the spotted owl a unique species, in this case. A hybrid will no doubt result over time.

Evolution for you...

 

[WidowMaker]

I think that they were probably right about the severe logging of old growth being a big part of the problem. Just because that logging dwindled, and the spotted owl numbers are dwindling, does not mean that logging was not a big reason.

It takes decades for habitat to restore, and a mere 10 to 15 years is a drop in the bucket of time, compared to heavy logging of old growth since the 1800s.

That another owl is partly to blame is well worth studying.

But I find that these scientists get in blinders mentality that we need to see results in a short period of time. It may take 50 to 100 years to actually study this type of thing.

I suspect that scientists may need to set their sights on much bigger intervals of time to learn about this. One thing is certain, this species has not existed forever. So they must have gone from just a few to thousands at one point in history. Seems they could do it again.

I'm not aware how much old growth or second growth was in the Oregon Biscuit fire area, but the number of acres devastated by that fire were incredible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit_Fire

A fire that intense must have quite an impact on the wildlife populations for decades.

====

Actually that fire was just a little over 1/3 the size of the "88 Yellowstone fire...

 

[Humptulips]

To loggers I don't think it will make one scintilla of difference whether the spotted owl suvives or not. The enviros are coming up with new species for the endangered list as needed to shut down whatever. There will never be any logging of old growth again and probably scant logging on federal land of any kind.

Latest one here is Fisher. Just released some on the Olympic Peninsula last year. USFW says they are warranted for listing as a distinct population segment. Reintroduction plan calls for a healthy breeding population in the Olympics, Southern Cascades and Northern Cascades to be deemed recovered. Also says they have to have "Closed Canopy Forest" to thrive.
I predict lawsuits someday.

 

[forestryworks]

somewhere i read the envirowhacks were suing
to stop logging cause a certain snail used only old growth habitat...

:monkey:

animals and bugs are smarter than most people give credit
they can adapt to change and move on pretty easily
if not, well, it's time for them to go

 

[slowp]

To loggers I don't think it will make one scintilla of difference whether the spotted owl suvives or not. The enviros are coming up with new species for the endangered list as needed to shut down whatever. There will never be any logging of old growth again and probably scant logging on federal land of any kind.

Latest one here is Fisher. Just released some on the Olympic Peninsula last year. USFW says they are warranted for listing as a distinct population segment. Reintroduction plan calls for a healthy breeding population in the Olympics, Southern Cascades and Northern Cascades to be deemed recovered. Also says they have to have "Closed Canopy Forest" to thrive.
I predict lawsuits someday.

You are right on. Ironically, the Fisher is considered a pest by the people in Northern Wisconsin, where it flourishes, despite the CLEARCUTTING of Aspen and all the private homes that are mixed in the forest. They thrive on the chickens. I ran into one. He was climbing a tree and gave me a look like he was having a very bad day. I mentioned that they are considered rare out here and the Cheeseheads thought it was a crazy world.

Here it is the rare slugs and snails. I wonder how rare they really are?

Last year a logger hired a guy to do a spotted owl survey. If they don't get an answer, the logger can start up 6 weeks earlier. A barred owl answered. The same guy may be doing yet another survey in a different area. It costs around $1800.

The latest plan I've heard is to hire people to shoot barred owls. That'll cost a chunk of change. Also, the number of spotted owl nests found is proportionate to the amount of roads in an area. The denser the road system, the more owl nests there are. The hooters didn't get very far off the roads.

 

[mtngun]

I like cutting and using wood and have no problem with selective logging, but I like having some old growth around, too.

The logging industry is going down the tubes because the housing industry is going down the tubes, and because of competition from cheap Canadian lumber. Yet living here in logging country, I have yet to see a single bumper sticker complaining about the CEOs and politicians who are responsible for the problem.

"Bankers ..... it's what's for dinner ???"

"If you don't like logging, try wiping your butt with a Federal Reserve Chairman ?????"

"Republicans .... tastes like chicken ????"

Just a thought. Now go back to logging.

 

[Bushler]

Old growth comes from young growth. Its like corn. When its ripe you harvest it and replant it. Not that hard to understand if you try.

Trees are trees.

 

[Jacob J.]

The winter following the fire the Chetco River ran red with mud from the burnt over watershed. Great management.

They tried to blame all that silt and topsoil wash on human activity as well, the top quote being "road building"...

 

[forestryworks]

Old growth comes from young growth. Its like corn. When its ripe you harvest it and replant it. Not that hard to understand if you try.

Trees are trees.

with the rate of urban sprawl (the current economic downturn aside) we're gonna have to look at it that way.

there's always people born everyday, newlyweds buying houses, yada yada

the world runs on wood and wood products

 

[Jacob J.]

We've already got enough second and third growth plantations to feed our wood needs for the next 500 years easy. In fact, there's a lot of planted ground that's going to convert back into ancient forest before we'll have a chance to log it.

A TSA I know recently did 1400 acres of fuels reduction and thinning in a primarily virgin forest near Diamond Lake, Oregon, and the after effects look really good. I cut timber on part of the sale and then later on I came back and did slash disposal work on it. It's a good looking sale with mutually beneficial returns and the trees that are left are "legacy" trees.

 

[forestryworks]

We've already got enough second and third growth plantations to feed our wood needs for the next 500 years easy. In fact, there's a lot of planted ground that's going to convert back into ancient forest before we'll have a chance to log it.

A TSA I know recently did 1400 acres of fuels reduction and thinning in a primarily virgin forest near Diamond Lake, Oregon, and the after effects look really good. I cut timber on part of the sale and then later on I came back and did slash disposal work on it. It's a good looking sale with mutually beneficial returns and the trees that are left are "legacy" trees.

that diamond lake area is pretty - at least in pictures it is

 

[Jacob J.]

that diamond lake area is pretty - at least in pictures it is

I cut on a ridge overlooking the lake itself...absolutely gorgeous. You have to take a break every 45 minutes or so and just look out across the lake and remind yourself that it's good to be alive...(not to mention the timber there is some of the best in the world.)

 

[Humptulips]

You are right on. Ironically, the Fisher is considered a pest by the people in Northern Wisconsin, where it flourishes, despite the CLEARCUTTING of Aspen and all the private homes that are mixed in the forest. They thrive on the chickens. I ran into one. He was climbing a tree and gave me a look like he was having a very bad day. I mentioned that they are considered rare out here and the Cheeseheads thought it was a crazy world.

Here it is the rare slugs and snails. I wonder how rare they really are?

Last year a logger hired a guy to do a spotted owl survey. If they don't get an answer, the logger can start up 6 weeks earlier. A barred owl answered. The same guy may be doing yet another survey in a different area. It costs around $1800.

The latest plan I've heard is to hire people to shoot barred owls. That'll cost a chunk of change. Also, the number of spotted owl nests found is proportionate to the amount of roads in an area. The denser the road system, the more owl nests there are. The hooters didn't get very far off the roads.

A number of years ago I ran into a couple of FS workers out in the woods. They told me they were surveying for the Olympic Jumping Slug. I thought they were joking at the time.
I wonder now though.

 

[Bushler]

Jacob, you might be right about the domestic need, but if we have that much timber why not losen up the regs. and start exporting some fed timber and get a favorable hit on our trade imbalance?

Burvol reports the export market is hot. Why aren't we capitalizing on that if we have more than we need for the next 500 years?

Let the private timber fuel the domestic market, and ship the fed timber to Japan for $1100/M. Seems like a no brainer.

I agree with you on the beauty around Diamond lake. We cruise through there pretty frequently on the motorcycles. I rode my street bike over a gnarly dirt road to see this, Crescent Lake, (north of Diamond Lake).