The student becomes the instructor? Yes or No?

[hobby climber]

A good friend of mine who is also my Husky dealer contacted me last week saying that two of his customers want to learn to climb and do tree work properly. The one guy called me up and expressed his interest to "learn the ropes". They offered to work for me cheap or pay me for any information I could offer them. There are dozens of tree services in the area I live but only a couple of them provide safe & proper tree care. The rest ,IMO are a bunch of hacks that climb on arborist equipment that they buy at the hardware store. I invited the two over this past Sunday to feel them out to see just how serious they were and what they had in mind. I was impressed with them and there approach to learn proper tree care practices before they learn to climb. They were at my home for about 4 hours as I talked about tree care...the dos & don'ts, as well as climbing & rigging equipment thats used. By the time they left Sunday afternoon, they realized that there is a hell of a lot more to tree work that just climbing up a tree and slashing branches off with a chain saw. My wife told me I'm nuts if I'm going to teach them what had taken me over six years to learn,(and I'm still learning). I just like to get your take on this and am wondering what would you do in this situation??? Should I charge them for lessons? Have them work for me for free? Give them all the educational & arborist web sites and the arborist suppliers that I know? Show them what to do, how to do it, and explain to them why its done that certain way so they don't kill themselves and make lots of money!? Again ...what would you suggest if you were me? Keep in mind that these two guys are just doing what some here have suggested to others in the past who want to learn, ...(seek out someone who knows and learn what you can from them)! HC

 

[skwerl]

I don't know about you, but I love being able to share what I've learned with someone who wants to learn. 99% of the people I deal with couldn't care less what I know, they just want me to whack that limb for them. I live for the other 1%. I'll try to work it to where a willing student can work with me on paying jobs so that we all can be paid for our time and efforts.

 

[treeseer]

I agree with your wife; look at it from her point of view. You took 4 hours of time that you could have spent with her. You pay your money and time to learn, then you teach for free. At least get em to work for free while they learn, or give you something else in return for your time.

I do agree that sharing freeware like websites is fine to do with competitors, and that sharing info feels good and does good. But it does have vlaue, and the recipients should give value in return.

 

[PTS]

Are you missing out on a prime employee candidate. I only wish I could get someone to come to me interested in climbing and not just looking for a paycheck. I would take it to my advantage. Hire them. Teach them what you know make them want to stay with you. Don't ever let them believe that they could do it on their own or they will be gone. Treat them very well and you will have a long employee that will make you a lot of money down the road.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Think carefully about the liability that you assume when you start teaching. The potential for a lawsuit because of any number of reasons is huge. Are you covered?

 

[clearance]

Tom and PTS have some very good points. I would add that as you say it isn't all climb and slash, niether is it all climbing. These guys have to be paid, they also have to start at the bottom. That means dragging brush to the chipper, filing up saws, cleaning up and the thousand other tasks that make up a good groundsman. People have to earn thier dues and get familar with the work.

 

[Stumper]

I suppose that there is meritr in every response you have recieved thus far but Brian's (skwerl) thinking mirrors my own. Let people learn while doing and everyone gain form the arrangement. Tom is right about potential liability..... but he is still a teacher so I guess he doesn't let a litigious society undermine what brings him joy. Personally. I refuse to let "potential liability" run my life. I try to do what is right as best as I can determine and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Tom_Blough]

*

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Have them work for me for free?

You'll have some serious legal problems with that approach. Liability, tax, and minimum wage issues.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Where is there anything said that a person "has" to have insurance?
Has anyone ever recommended not having liability insurance for climbing and cutting? Does anyone think that they would be able to dodge a lawsuit if a "student" was learning? Why would anyone ever need insurance if they're as good as you claim to be?

Insurance is purchased to form a blanket of protection from an unforseen loss. What happens when you show someone how to climb and they have an accident. The claim would be that you didn't teach them "enough" How is that defined? Ask the courts...

If you think that this isn't likely to happen, find out the story of how Black Diamond Equipment was sued. Yvon Chouinard lost the company from a lawsuit.

 

[treeseer]

Blue Ridge, TomD, I think we are talking about a short-term relationship with no guarantees, which would be well under the IRS and legal radar. I agree with skwerl's reaction, without the unfortunate sarcasm. If it's a longterm relationship then yes all those issues could come into play.

Re insurance, I carry E&O, errors and omissions coverage, which can be of help if someone that I advise has an accident. Strongly encouraged for consultants and educators to have, but if hc has a couple folks by a couple of times there is no big deal unless they are running chainsaws and chippers or climbing high, in which case yes you'll want to check their liability coverage at least.

 

[Tom_Blough]

*

 

[hobby climber]

WOW! Thanks guys for all your in-put regarding this matter. I don't see myself as a teacher but more of a student who is always learning. I would feel more comfortable just answering questions than giving lessons at this time. When the two fellows were at my house, I tried to show them how to tie a bowline. Lets put it this way...they have a lot to learn! I spent the first year or two using the trial & failure method of learning "the ropes" and took my lumps. Just wish someone had pointed me in the right direction when I started out! I also told them what the owner of one of the leading tree care companies told me..."there are enough tree to go around for everybody but the quality of your work will keep your phone ringing". I haven't heard form the guys since Sunday buy they did asked if they could come over next weekend even after I left them with more questions then answers! I showed them my copy of the tree climbers companion and they were all over it!!! That impressed me to the point that I ordered each of them there own copy. For now, I'm going to point them to other sources of information on the web as well as books,DVD, videos,etc and leave it at that until they realize that a chain saw is a very small part of tree care! In the mean time, we'll just stick to leaning about ropes and knots and answering questions! How does this sound so far??? HC

 

[clearance]

Like I said earlier-people have to start at the bottom. Get them to help with an ugly removal job, you know the kind, trees way behind the house, 250ft. to the chipper, uphill both ways. If they can't handle the tough n-work then they don't deserve to climb. Don't waste your time, find out what they are made of soon. Hopefully they work their ballls off with a smile on their faces, then you know you really have something.

 

[hobby climber]

Humm, ...come to think of it, my parents need a Black Walnut & Silver Maple removed...

 

[notahacker]

Yup, forget it. Don't teach anybody anything. As a matter of fact, maybe we all should quit offering advice on this forum as well unless we all buy Tom Terrific's Amazing Liability Insurance. Yup, don't even let 'em watch you climb bacause they can sue you...
:bang:

Skwerl: Why do you have to be disrespectful? Do you feel intimidated with Tom's professional approach to the industry? If you had a fraction of Tom's life experience, you might take back what you said.

 

[okietreedude1]

Im sorry clearance, Im going to have to disagree with you on the ugly removal thing.

If they came to me, Id put a rope in a tree using a throwline, and show them how to climb. PUt them in a saddle, tie them in, help them body thrust up and let them climb just for fun. And i'd put them in a tree that had been properly trimmed to make it easy for them. Start them off low and show them their equip will perform correctly when properly set up.

By letting them climb in a recreational setting, it would let them see the physical side to the work before cutting even comes into play. By dumping tree limbs/wood all around them and making them clean it up, you may end up scaring them off before you teach them anything about becoming an arborist. If you do decide a job site is the scenerio you want to teach them in, Id stay away from a labor intensive removal.

Ive shown many guys that have come to work how to climb. Some were naturals and others wanted nothing to do with it. (come to find out later some were afraid of heights.) Those that dont like it can still achieve to be a great groundsman, we all need one.

As for the insurance/liability things, if your concerned about it, have them sign a waiver of responsibility. I know it may not be worth much more than the paper its written on, but at least they know this is not childs play and the are susceptable to injury or even death.

Best of luck in your teachings.

 

[clearance]

My old boss hired a young guy, he was helping me do some r.o.w. work in a park (bush Park) he was working pretty good and wanted to climb. I walked into the bush found a nice red cedar about 60ft. tall. Climbed up and stripped it 40ft.tied in, came down. Got buddy to put on my belt and spurs, snapped the tautline on him, get up the tree. First tree, he just walked right up it, unsure of rappeling so he spurred back down. Good show. But why teach someone to climb if they might not chip. You might be creating a prima donna climber. Met one once, a really good climber, the trees were on the ground and he said "I don't chip brush, take me home" What a mutt, never mind he was a good climber, thats only part of it. Any climber that never helps chip is a loser and will not have the respect of his crew.

 

[hobby climber]

Okietreedude1, thats sound advise but the thing is...I'm just a part time independent climber (hobby) with a full time day job...not a teacher. I do like the idea of getting them into a saddle and experiencing climbing but as mentioned above, I would like to see them learn to tie a couple of knots first. There is a conservation area near by that has the perfect oak tree to practice on,(with a friction saver of course)! I've realized not all that long ago that in the tree business, "the more I learn...the less I really know"! Thats why I spend the money on books, dvd's, videos and travel to the conventions etc to learn more. I attended the TCIA show in Columbus this past fall to learn more about rigging. I found out that I had been doing it correctly all along but what I learned there was WHY its the correct way. What an eye opener. Learning to do something the right way is good and all but "KNOWING WHY" its the right way is something you likely can't learn from a book! HC

 

[rebelman]

Ever watch Kung Fu? Remember Kane? The bald chinese boy? He had to wash dishes and mop for years before he got to kick ass. If a guy can't handle a few months of groundwork, he'll never cut it up in the tough stuff.