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The truth about oils
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dozerdan
Addicted to ArboristSite
I say the guy was a total and complete idiot! he didnt happen to work for Amsoil did he? A few of the common base stocks such as PAO's(Mobil 1 car oil) and Esters(many two cycle oils) do not start out as crude in any way. Pao's start out as ethylene gas and esters start out as a organic acid and a alcohol. You can also make synthetics using the Fischer-trope process where by oil and fuels can be made from hydrogen and CO2.
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BTW dont believe me go over to www.noria.com or www.bobistheoilguy.com and prepare to get blasted.
You can pic apart almost everything in your post as being false.
You can pic apart almost everything in your post as being false.
Maybe you should go to dozerdan's link bwalker, it just reinforces what i posted. Here is the main gist of it-
Synthetic oils can be derived from several sources, but the most stable are derived from polyol ester bases. These bases are laboratory creations; to make them, chemists break apart the molecules that make up a variety of substances, like vegetable and animal oils
In other words they would have to start with something to make their synthetic bases, namely animal or vegtable oils.
Synthetic oils can be derived from several sources, but the most stable are derived from polyol ester bases. These bases are laboratory creations; to make them, chemists break apart the molecules that make up a variety of substances, like vegetable and animal oils
In other words they would have to start with something to make their synthetic bases, namely animal or vegtable oils.
There is a science called TRIBOLOGY (The branch of engineering that deals with the interaction of surfaces in relative motion (as in bearings or gears): their design and friction and wear and lubrication) enginneers after their degrees again study long and hard (tribologists ) best not tell them their is no such thing as synthetic oils and lubricants.
You said the above, which is obsolutley false. Nothing in Dozers link reinforces the rubbish you posted. If you dont believe me thats fine, but I suggest you get off your butt and do some research before you parrot tripe like this.
isnt it painfully obvious that you have to start with somehting to make something? IN most cases it isnt animal or vegatable oils. In fact of the oils that you can buy over the shelf right now, none are made using either.
FWIW the polyol esters in question are made from a alchol and a organic acid like I suggested. Some esters can be made by the transesterfication process from animal fats, but I would hardly call the finished product a mineral oil.
SIRCHOPALOT
ArboristSite Operative
sounds like another sales pitch to me. if you use the word synthetic in that context then I guess nothing is actually synthetic. we are not GOD we cannot create anything. so of course you have to use a base stock of something. you can't just wave your majic wand and get oil. go tell the dude he is goofy.
This is a snippet of a article that describes how PaO's are made. PAO's are the most popular, real synthetic used in automotive oils. "The ethylene gas C2H4 or propylene (or other similar gases) are then "oligomerized" which means that the gas is transformed to various molecular weight liquids via polymerization, or the linking together of many single molecules. The products of these gases, via catalysts, results in a crystal clear liquid. [A catalyst is a chemical, usually a metal compound in this case, that increases the rate of reaction but itself does not undergo any permanent change].
The type of catalyst used determines the final molecular weight of the liquid. Low viscosity PAO's (2- 10 cSt) are made by using boron trifluoride catalysts, and heavy PAO's (40-100 cSt) are made using the alkylaluminum catalysts.
The liquid is then hydrogenated with hydrogen gas at approx. 250 C and 500 psi pressure with a nickel catalyst to further stabilize the fluid for oxidative and thermal stability.
Different catalysts, intermediate ditillation techniques, and different starting gases or combinations of gasses can be used to taylor- make PAO's for any viscosity or property required.
A gas chromatigraph will show the narrow molecular distribution of finished PAOs. This is in contrast to minerals oils and even VHVI oils, which show a wide distribution of molecules, i.e., both high and low molecular weight distributions.
A narrow disritbution of HC moleculaes means that the PAO fluid is stable in terms of
exhibiting low volatility and high VI. VI's of 150 are very common with PAO's. Of course, the higher the viscosity, the higher the Viscosity Index. "
The type of catalyst used determines the final molecular weight of the liquid. Low viscosity PAO's (2- 10 cSt) are made by using boron trifluoride catalysts, and heavy PAO's (40-100 cSt) are made using the alkylaluminum catalysts.
The liquid is then hydrogenated with hydrogen gas at approx. 250 C and 500 psi pressure with a nickel catalyst to further stabilize the fluid for oxidative and thermal stability.
Different catalysts, intermediate ditillation techniques, and different starting gases or combinations of gasses can be used to taylor- make PAO's for any viscosity or property required.
A gas chromatigraph will show the narrow molecular distribution of finished PAOs. This is in contrast to minerals oils and even VHVI oils, which show a wide distribution of molecules, i.e., both high and low molecular weight distributions.
A narrow disritbution of HC moleculaes means that the PAO fluid is stable in terms of
exhibiting low volatility and high VI. VI's of 150 are very common with PAO's. Of course, the higher the viscosity, the higher the Viscosity Index. "
premix
ArboristSite Member
There is a big difference between a oil salesman and a oil chemist. I would say this guy is full of it in a few of his statements. Although he is right on the claim "refined from Pennsylvania crude.
"The only difference in our oils come from the modifiers added to it, including the so-called synthetic. The main modifiers are friction fighters and pour point."
Obviously he knows nothing about Group 1, Group II, Group III, Group IV, and Group V base oils.
"He also said that the best base stock to use for crankcase/two stroke oils is not mineral based at all, it's (you guessed it) vegetable based, specifically Canola oil."
"with the addition of some long chain paraffins provide the very best lubrication."
Does he not even realize long chain paraffins come from mineral based oils?? They are made by chlorinating paraffin obtained from petroleum distillation?
Canola oil for motor oil has been studied for almost 20 years I believe there is a place in Colorado that makes it for PCMO. It is mainly pushed by people with an agenda...... lobbyist for farmers.
PDF base oils
"The only difference in our oils come from the modifiers added to it, including the so-called synthetic. The main modifiers are friction fighters and pour point."
Obviously he knows nothing about Group 1, Group II, Group III, Group IV, and Group V base oils.
"He also said that the best base stock to use for crankcase/two stroke oils is not mineral based at all, it's (you guessed it) vegetable based, specifically Canola oil."
"with the addition of some long chain paraffins provide the very best lubrication."
Does he not even realize long chain paraffins come from mineral based oils?? They are made by chlorinating paraffin obtained from petroleum distillation?
Canola oil for motor oil has been studied for almost 20 years I believe there is a place in Colorado that makes it for PCMO. It is mainly pushed by people with an agenda...... lobbyist for farmers.
PDF base oils
premix
ArboristSite Member
BTW one of the dirtiest burning oils you can use in a 2 stroke is a pure vegetable oil... AKA bean oil. Burned many gallons of it in the 70s in A/C dirt bikes. I still remember spending many hours trying to get it out of exhaust ports and pipes when doing top ends.
Bwalker, make your point but leave your insults off of this forum.
Koa Man
Kahuna giganticus
Now I'm getting really confused. I don't care how oils are made or what they are made of. My only concern is using a high quality product that will protect my equipment. That being said, should I just continue to buy Echo PowerBlend at $27 a gal., or try to find Citgo at around $7 a gal. and is Citgo really the same as Echo's? Should I pay a visit to the local Redline store for their stuff and is Redline's oil much cheaper? I would like to save money buying oil, but I also don't mind spending money for a quality product.
I never said anyhting that was insulting to you directly, only the quality of your post.
KOA Echo powerblend or Citgo are both excellant and much cheaper than Redline. DONT USE REDLINE!
KOA Echo powerblend or Citgo are both excellant and much cheaper than Redline. DONT USE REDLINE!
SIRCHOPALOT
ArboristSite Operative
Koa Man said:
I have heard that the citgo is the same. it is a good quality oil. the redline will be much more expensive. I see you are on the island so mail order may be your best bet. meijer retail stores carry the citgo stuff around here. mobil mx2t is also a great oil. just make sure whatever you get meets the ISO EGD and/or JASO FC specs, it will say so on the back of the bottle.
Koa man, in the end I don't think it really matters as long as the oil meets or passes the certification tests for that aplication. This is usually written on the label.(API, TCW3, etc.) It seems that proper use of the oil is more important than the brand, at least that is what I see posted here by a lot of people who use their 2-stroke equipment day-to-day to make a living. So far I have not heard of very many engine failures or premature wear that can be blamed on the oil, the stuff we get off the shelf is quite a bit better than what it was 30 years ago. Hope this helps.
SIRCHOPALOT
ArboristSite Operative
bwalker said:
Your sever dislike for redline is relly starting to make me think. I will do some more test with this stuff. I have never had a problem, but will take anyones input to help avoid one. how long ago did you have the problem with the redline? I do remember some racers saying they had a problem about 7-8 yrs ago, but they were running some funky gas, so I just figured the gas was the problem.
SIRCHOPALOT
ArboristSite Operative
oops I meant severe, not sever
SIRCHOPALOT
ArboristSite Operative
I don't think you were insulting either, I just think some people only like one opinion, theirs!
SIRCHOPALOT
ArboristSite Operative
Pioneer said:
try to avoid the API, TCW3 stuff if you can and go with the specs I listed.
