Thinking of downsizing...

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mikewhite85

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It got my California Contractor's license in 2010 (started the business at the end of '08). Right now I am running a 3-4 man crew most days and payroll and worker's comp (40% for climbers) is just costing me so much. My 6 month bill is due next week. Liability and commercial auto are starting to get expensive too (3 trucks). I am by no means a large company but having employees costs me a ton. They are pretty good guys and I have a great foreman but in addition to payroll things are constantly getting broken and jobs often aren't getting done on my timescale (this is often my fault due to underbidding though). Yesterday they worked 12 hours and today it was around 11. Typically though it's 8-10. Traffic is a bear around here so it's pretty ordinary for 2-3 of those hours to be driving time.

Most of what I do is manage and go on sales to keep my guys going. Maybe once a month I spend a day working with the guys (I do miss it). I am thinking of selling my bigger equipment (f450 dump and Bandit 90) and most of my saws. I'll just keep my 2 grinders (alpine and vermeer 252), my f350 pickup, and a couple saws and climbing gear. I'll drop worker's comp and just work by myself. I might put a dump hoist under the pickup bed to make it a little easier for me. I would likely even sell my ranger and just use my wife's car for estimates.

I am thinking about getting into stump grinding as my main deal but would probably also contract climb and do arborist consults (usually I charge $75 a pop to flap my lips, which I could probably raise since some charge 200 around here).

That way making 300 bucks a day grinding with little over-head would be great for me... instead of having to make 15-16 hundy+ per day to make a profit with a lot more risk and variables.

It seems that mostly older guys do the stump grinding. If it makes a difference I am 27.

Have any of you guys downsized in this way? Looking for advice to help weigh the options. Maybe I am just crazy and need you guys to straighten me out. I do have tons of work and a really good reputation on yelp and angies. So far I've grossed around 220k this year but it sure doesn't seem like it! I never thought the expenses would be what they are.
 
Yep, between comp and insurance, strictly a family show now. no employees in the foreseeable future.
 
Insurance is definitely the big inhibitor for me.

Next October I might be able to get a significantly better rate as my current policy is renewing right now. Last month I actually shopped aggressively for other brokers but I cannot get coverage from anyone but State Fund (nasty overpriced government insurance) until next year. This hope might keep me going until then! One lady said she could get rates as low as 16.75%. Even if I paid 30% it would be a lot better.
 
Insurance is definitely the big inhibitor for me.

Next October I might be able to get a significantly better rate as my current policy is renewing right now. Last month I actually shopped aggressively for other brokers but I cannot get coverage from anyone but State Fund (nasty overpriced government insurance) until next year. This hope might keep me going until then! One lady said she could get rates as low as 16.75%. Even if I paid 30% it would be a lot better.

Once you get away from the state you can save a fortune. There are even tree workers unions.
 
What does one pay for insurance in PA?

It really hurts everyone out here and also kills wages. I would love to pay my foreman $30 an hour (which he used to make when working in Chicago) but there's no way I could afford it with the insurance. Most run of the mill climbers around here make 13-17 an hour most likely.

Most companies around here fudge on it. I have heard a lot of tree trimmers and roofers pay their guys 50% cash and 50% payroll. Like most places there are tons of companies with no worker's comp at all.
 
if you are that busy seems like you could stand to raise your rates... I'd try that first and see how it goes.. If it goes well, you can get some better equipment and become even more profitable... Most of the time, we are the ones standing in our own way.. (sure its a rat race).. have you ever used a business consultant?
 
If i am remembering correctly its 3k per 20k in wages for a climber, then ground guys is 1500.00 per 20k in wages. i carry 5mill liability and 5 mill on my vehicles not really sure what i pay on that i would have to check. It changes a lot my accountant searches every time. the bill is due for the lowest rate to make sure I'm getting the best deal i can. 5 mill in liability is pretty mandatory for me doing contract work they wont except anything less.
 
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In aus, workers comp is 7.8% for both climbers and groundies. That's 7.8% of pre tax earnings plus super annuation. It sounds low, but we make up for it by having lots of other fees and taxes. Public liability is moderately expensive. Vehicle insurance is not compulsory as I've heard it is in the states.

I was running 4 guys last year full time, but got sick of having to always chase work and keep them busy. It is pressure, and can be stressful. As you say, things do go wrong, and though your turning over some $$$ it always seems like there's money in the jar for everyone but yourself.

Last winter I laid the guys off and went back to running the show myself. I hire ground crew casually now, and pool nthe labour with a couple other tree companies in a similar position as myself. I think it works out better for everyone.... For myself, and the other tree companies, we don't have the stress. If there's work, we use the guys. There's always enough to keep them rolling. It means I can take days off or do other things myself too. For the guys, they end up earning more each week than if they were full time. We pay them more than full time guys would get on an hourly basis. SOme of them work only 4 days a week by choice, but still get about the same as 5 days full time.

That sort of thing might work for you. It means that the crew is even more of a revolving door than usual. Guys come and go. But thats how it is.

Shaun
 
Workers comp rates in pa for a tree worker are $40 per every $100 of payroll.

Holy crap you guys are getting hammered there! Our's used to be $3 in change and it's like only $4.25 or something per $100.00 Doesn't matter in your on the ground or in the tree, same rate. I hear you though Mike, I have 2 full time guys, and 5 part time and yeah when we get big jobs or emergency insurance stuff it's hard to keep track of just what's going on! I am happy where I am right now. Can't believe how much you are paying for insurance. I have almost the same equipment as you, just a bit bigger chipper and mine is under $2000 for the year, 5 mill liability etc.... 20 years experience, no claims
 
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You could do what I did and Hire a sales guy. How much more work could you get done if you were on every job? You are the best arborist on your crew right? Workers comp for my sales guy is like 50 bucks a year and I don't have to pay it on myself.
 
Do you own a bucket truck? If not, getting one will really make stuff go quicker and cut down on your labor expense. That's what I'm doing next year, still saving up that down payment. I regularly find myself monkeying around in a tree thinking about how much quicker it would be to get stuff on the ground from a tree next to a driveway or road. Just sayin.
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

Hiring a sales guy makes me nervous. A good one would be worth his weight in gold though. Not sure about getting a bucket as I do not have a CDL and the insurance for that is going to be a beast.

Had a decent day today. Went on a bunch of bids and my 3 guys (1 was out with poison oak) make about 1700. Great day though it was about a 12 hours. Tomorrow will be better if everything goes right. We'll see.

Think I'll stick with it for now.
 
In prep for the move, I got my guys jobs with my friends who run landscaping outfits, and went down to just family. All family, no comp=sweetness.
 
Workers comp rates in pa for a tree worker are $40 per every $100 of payroll.

That is probably about right, but you should understand that each employer will be paying different rates. It is all determined by your "experience mod"; basically, a complicated way of adding up how many claims you have had in the past.

You probably need to spend more time learning about workers comp, so that you can keep your rates lower. Even if you downsize, you will need to carry worker's comp on yourself if you are working for other companies.
 

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