**Tightest** way to snug a rigging-anchor: dead-eye sling, or whoopie?

[eye.heart.trees]

I'm gonna bite the bullet/my cheek, take whatever embarrassment here & just be honest....I'm IN LOVE with my Safebloc, but still hardly using it or rather not using it 1/5th as often as I should be.

Reason? Because I've never used a whoopie when things mattered, I took my Safebloc out of a 15', 3/4 Polydyne deadeye sling because I wasn't using it so much (long tail, knots etc made my eye&eye anchors and choker-anchors far easier/my defaults), I bought & spliced the Bloc into a big 3/4 TEC whoopie (think it allowed like 2' longer than the Sherrill ones do, and the throat was as-short as any professional ones), I LOVE it but, anytime I've actually got real / serious targets below, the whoopie "coming loose"/slipping freaks me out and I just can't use it....

So I've now pulled-out the tail, turning my Safebloc whoopie into a Safebloc deadeye(~18' long 3/4 TEC tail'd), under assumptions that:
#1 - a cow-hitch (w/ better half) is a more reliable, safer, dependable way of securing the Bloc than a whoopie, and also of huge importance to me:
#2 - that I can get my Safebloc tighter on the stem using a deadeye than a whoopie (IE less 'slop' in the anchor-to-log area, the Safebloc is already a 'tall' device that causes negatively-rigged pieces to freefall an extra ~1' before the Bloc has inverted itself & begun letting rope pass)

Thanks a ton, I feel ridiculous I mean now I've just got a deadeye of TEC I would've sooner kept it in the (far stronger) 3/4 Polydyne deadeye at this point (though now that length of 3/4 polydyne has an XL on each end, is ~9.5' long after all the back/forth splicing, gotta say I've NEVER had a more-useful rig-anchor config than this eye&eye, I mean I reallly loved & defaulted-to that 5', 3/4TEC 3-ringed sling that sherrill sells, so convenient, but the 9.5' length of my eye&eye lets me use it on anything and, damn, the strength-#'s on a basket-configuration of 3/4 polydyne w/ XL's at each termination, can definitely handle anything the 5/8" polydyne running-through it could handle!!!)
Will re-make the whoopie if it is genuinely "solid as hell" reliable, I'd seen a video (for slackliners) ages ago where they showed how either a whoopie-or-loopie was prone to slippage in some cases and I simply couldn't use anything that's got that as a potential, need to know for-sure that, once knotted/dressed/set, that I can count-on my textiles doing what they're supposed to

 

[eye.heart.trees]

[[["What I don't understand, is why weren't you using it much in its original configuration, when it was on the 3/4 polydyne deadeye? Why would it be different now that it's on an "inferior"* TEC deadeye?" Since I expect that ^ may not have been clear....I use multiple anchors, aiming for 2+ for anything I'm doing just as a default, and I've got a good deal of anchors and what was happening is I'd found my 5', 3/4 TEC - with 3 rings - sling was so simple to use, and my other choker-ring-slings were simple for my 2nd/3rd/etc satellite/redirect rig points, that carrying-up the almost-20' heavy 3/4 polydyne Safebloc-deadeye just didn't happen much in-practice, was only using it when needed not as default which is how I'd like to use it....So I got some TEC, made it into a whoopie instead, my 1st-ever whoopie, thinking "oh people seem to love whoopies & Ultraslings, I know the Ultra's won't give me the tight-to-stem hardware orientation I desire so will make a whoopie" but after making it, having it some months in that configuration and now reflecting upon it, I've been using it almost-exclusively in situations where it's "kinda helpful" and never ever in situations where there's serious targets below, or where I'm suspect of the anchoring-point.....yet those are the EXACT types of scenarios that one should get the MOST use out of a Safebloc, not the least! So hoping to figure-out if I "the conservative" method here is to re-make the whoopie, or to leave it deadeye....am also very eager to hear deadeye knots that are favorites because cow-hitching ("with better-half") is my main way, also w/ long deadeye legs I can't help but think "I've already wrapped my Bloc onto the stem, but still have 8' of usable TEC tail, maybe I could RE-WRAP the Bloc with this tail!!", would SWEAR I've seen videos where there's clearly more-than a simple knot on the hardware-leg of the sling but cannot tell what / how they're doing it...so yeah if you've got a 20' tail, and are mating/tying your hardware to a 2' wide trunk, what do you do with the extra tail are there 'names' for "extra knots/security" done with that extra tail, after the initial knot is set/dressed? ]]]

 

[benjo75]

I love Safeblocs too. I've completely worn out several. My first one was on a dead eye. Good setup but in a tree where you're moving it often it takes a little longer to tie a cow hitch with 2 backups. My last few have been on Ultra slings. Thats the perfect setup for me. If I'm worried about the extra 12 to 18 inches that the length of the Safebloc and the slack in the ultra slings provides, on negative rigging, I'll just tie the upright piece being cut about 20 inches higher than the cut. Then stand the Safebloc upright when tightening the line. Then there isn't anymore slack or extra run in the system. Just the block flipping downward. It's never been a problem as we always let negative rigging run at least a little anyway. I have a few whoppie slings and trust them 100%. But I don't use them for rigging much. Takes too long to set them snug on a big spar or limb then longer to loosen. I generally use them with a block at the base of a tree for pulling over trees with the tractor or bucket truck. Never had one slip even one inch. Safebloc on Ultra sling all day for me. In the rare instance i needed it tight against the tree as possible it would be Safebloc on dead eye, cow hitch with 2 half hitch backups or rigging ring on dead eye sling with cow hitch with 2 half hitch backups. Even that wil3k loosen just a few inches over time. Never had a timber hitch move when set right.

 

[Del_]

 

[benjo75]

That's what I've always called a cow hitch. Works well.

 

[Del_]

That's what I've always called a cow hitch. Works well.

I've heard it called a 'Cow hitch with a better half'.

 

[eye.heart.trees]

Is that what you guys would use when you had the most-critical situation, if you'd had anything at your disposal? Or is it still 'just the best you can do w/ a dead-eye'?

So easy to slide that tail back-through and make it a whoopie again, and - when placing/'dressing' it on a stem I can get the slack out / seems solid - but tying-off with a knot(using a dead-eye) just "feels" more-reliable to me, like if I'm working over something where I'm being redundant about everything it's knotted dead-eyes all day for me
[[[[and I've basically made this thread to ask "Is that irrational? Should I trust-in the whoopie? It is a touch quicker to set, at least if I've got a full 'angle' to it", as well as to ask "When your sling's secured but you still have a ton of tail, can you re-wrap the trunk and/or the hardware in a way that'll make-use-of that extra tail, help strengthen and/or snug-up things?" ]]]]]]

 

[benjo75]

Do whatever makes you feel the safest and best. On a dead eye sling I usually wrap the excess tail around the limb then under the block then back around the limb going the other way until most of the tail is used up then tuck the last few inches under a wrap. Mainly to keep it out of the way of the saw and to keep it from wrapping around the rigging rope everytime I pull it back up. Doesn't hurt anything. Just takes a few more seconds. I've never heard of a loopie or whoopie slipping. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened though.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Devil's advocate:
Cranked tighter to tree flatter, is weaker: more deformity multiplier X impact speed squared X load.
.
After primary turn on host, Round Turn around Standing Part/'throat' , rather than single Turn; should give some strength back.
.
Best Nip is opposite side of host mount from imposed linear pull of Standing Part as it feeds into controlling arcs on host. Primary Turn, giving most Nip, but is very dependant on radial/clock position from raw, initial linear input.

 

[eye.heart.trees]

Devil's advocate:
Cranked tighter to tree flatter, is weaker: more deformity multiplier X impact speed squared X load.

You mean 'real' tightness though, don't you? I'm just talking about lack of excess cordage in the mix, not actually tightening or squeezing against tree with force or anything (unless you mean the rope-on-rope element? If so, that is where I feel like having some extra wrap/turn beneath the hardware's throat helps, almost "as cushion" between it and the tree - but I can't tell if you meant that, or if you mean that that would actually be worse since it's pushing the rigging outwards, however slightly)

Have been surprised sometimes at the forces even from the 'bending moment' when something's closing its notch and the faces meet and that top "pushes back", am still working up the weights that I'm comfortable catching (not remotely near my gear's capacity, can tell you that )

After primary turn on host, Round Turn around Standing Part/'throat' , rather than single Turn; should give some strength back.

Wait do you simply mean regular Cow Hitch, only instead of simply wrapping-around the throat as step 1, you'd wrap it around the throat twice (then it goes back around the stem, through the bite & half-hitched)

.
Best Nip is opposite side of host mount from imposed linear pull of Standing Part as it feeds into controlling arcs on host. Primary Turn, giving most Nip, but is very dependant on radial/clock position from raw, initial linear input.

Could you rephrase that by chance? Not following :/

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

A Standing Part (SPart)is a focused linear load input imposed into controlling arcs that make up knot internals.
>> i look at linear as focused, same amount of linear force on arc as dispersed as key to Hitches and Bends knot control.
Also on arc can use both cosine and sine for controlling frictions,
>>giving capstan equation (link) of compounding by degree rather than distance (as linear compounds thru) X Frictional coEfficiency of the mated materials (link)
.
Choices of Mechanix chosen/invoked against same load : rope tension per loaded angle to side force invoked as grip(as tradeoffs/choices in architecture)
SPart deformity is 1st key position of deformity(that degrades pristine linear efficiency) that load imposes upon
>> straight column SPart as possible gives greatest strength like a Roman Column.
>>example: 'Tensionless' Hitch trys for deformity of host mount only from pristine strength geometry(inline) of SPart
In dynamic hit, the pulse impact is multiplied by this degrading weakness against the rope.
.
Backhand Turn based hitches (Muenter, Cow etc. ) cut hardest across support column cos(cause) of SPart
>>and can be tightened, even more, to then cut across the geometry of SPart cos support column more/deforming support column more.
Extra tension on tree at same load, comes from somewhere, to grip tighter with sin carried in the degraded cos!
More deformity across SPart drops cosine(support column efficiency),thus need more tension/work against same load
>>as also increases sine(side force/grip) = more grip(sin) under same imposed load support (Load( per leg) ÷ cosine( as efficiency) = rope tension etc.)
.
ABoK Lesson#1669
If single Turn on host, then around SPart cuts across SPart as noted above giving deformity
But if take Round Turn (RT) around SPart, not as a termination/goes back around host (like Bull Hitch upgrade from Cow or 2eye sling/choker )
>> grips SPart (more than slips like 1 Turn does)
>> grip then pulls more along SPart column/less across >> stronger, but less grip on tree in trade.
BUT, if RT on host, precedes RT on SPart, the effect is LOST/greatly reduced(knudeNoggin)
>> there is not enough residual tension in Working End for the effect (theory)
.
Residual tension of rope on arc(after preceding trail of frictions degrading initial load force thru rope) at given point is one aspect tho.
Usage of the tension in that part of the rope is all very directional against host per the initial imposed input of SPart especially against host mount
>>if SPart pulls at a DIRECTION as middle of clock to 6o'clock
>>best Nip against host at 12o'clock, under 1st Turn(HH's Lesson#: 1662, 1666,1663).
(note these are termination of flow HHs, as opposed to force 'pass-thru' HH of Lesson#:271/1773)

To me on side pulls/lengthwise use RT, just as use Tapered Hinge against sideLean
>>each gives the multi-dimension support mechanix , against the multi-dimension load pull imposed thru fiber
>>where as a strip hinge or single turn are more for inline, single dimension devices best not to assert multi-dimensional load for cleanest balance.
.
Mechanix from geometry much different on linear vs. arc
RopeParts: rope/knot as separate pieced geometry of parts, reveals it's utilities; just as other devices in rigid materials
>>rope just forms its own joint connections; so well was the 1st connecting go to, before nails, screws, tape, glue etc.
>>and to re-form rope simply unload, not chip rock, carve wood, nor heat/pound metal
.
In nonRigids/flexibles( rope) linear parts: support only from (direct)cosine, and only (deflected)sine can give controlling frictions
BUT rope arc parts in rope etc.: use sine and cosine together as one
just like arc(h) in bridge does >> see the arch in architecture is as to create no right angles(Achille's Heels)

 

[eye.heart.trees]

After primary turn on host, Round Turn around Standing Part/'throat' , rather than single Turn; should give some strength back.

Wait do you simply mean regular Cow Hitch, only instead of simply wrapping-around the throat as step 1, you'd wrap it around the throat twice (then it goes back around the stem, through the bite & half-hitched)

A Standing Part (SPart)is a focused linear load input imposed into controlling arcs that make up knot internals.
>> i look at linear as focused, same amount of linear force on arc as dispersed as key to Hitches and Bends knot control.
Also on arc can use both cosine and sine for controlling frictions,
>>giving capstan equation (link) of compounding by degree rather than distance (as linear compounds thru) X Frictional coEfficiency of the mated materials (link)
.
Choices of Mechanix chosen/invoked against same load : rope tension per loaded angle to side force invoked as grip(as tradeoffs/choices in architecture)
SPart deformity is 1st key position of deformity(that degrades pristine linear efficiency) that load imposes upon
>> straight column SPart as possible gives greatest strength like a Roman Column.
>>example: 'Tensionless' Hitch trys for deformity of host mount only from pristine strength geometry(inline) of SPart
In dynamic hit, the pulse impact is multiplied by this degrading weakness against the rope.
.
Backhand Turn based hitches (Muenter, Cow etc. ) cut hardest across support column cos(cause) of SPart
>>and can be tightened, even more, to then cut across the geometry of SPart cos support column more/deforming support column more.
Extra tension on tree at same load, comes from somewhere, to grip tighter with sin carried in the degraded cos!
More deformity across SPart drops cosine(support column efficiency),thus need more tension/work against same load
>>as also increases sine(side force/grip) = more grip(sin) under same imposed load support (Load( per leg) ÷ cosine( as efficiency) = rope tension etc.)
.
ABoK Lesson#1669
If single Turn on host, then around SPart cuts across SPart as noted above giving deformity
But if take Round Turn (RT) around SPart, not as a termination/goes back around host (like Bull Hitch upgrade from Cow or 2eye sling/choker )
>> grips SPart (more than slips like 1 Turn does)
>> grip then pulls more along SPart column/less across >> stronger, but less grip on tree in trade.
BUT, if RT on host, precedes RT on SPart, the effect is LOST/greatly reduced(knudeNoggin)
>> there is not enough residual tension in Working End for the effect (theory)
.
Residual tension of rope on arc(after preceding trail of frictions degrading initial load force thru rope) at given point is one aspect tho.
Usage of the tension in that part of the rope is all very directional against host per the initial imposed input of SPart especially against host mount
>>if SPart pulls at a DIRECTION as middle of clock to 6o'clock
>>best Nip against host at 12o'clock, under 1st Turn(HH's Lesson#: 1662, 1666,1663).
(note these are termination of flow HHs, as opposed to force 'pass-thru' HH of Lesson#:271/1773)
View attachment 863290
To me on side pulls/lengthwise use RT, just as use Tapered Hinge against sideLean
>>each gives the multi-dimension support mechanix , against the multi-dimension load pull imposed thru fiber
>>where as a strip hinge or single turn are more for inline, single dimension devices best not to assert multi-dimensional load for cleanest balance.
.
Mechanix from geometry much different on linear vs. arc
RopeParts: rope/knot as separate pieced geometry of parts, reveals it's utilities; just as other devices in rigid materials
>>rope just forms its own joint connections; so well was the 1st connecting go to, before nails, screws, tape, glue etc.
>>and to re-form rope simply unload, not chip rock, carve wood, nor heat/pound metal
.
In nonRigids/flexibles( rope) linear parts: support only from (direct)cosine, and only (deflected)sine can give controlling frictions
BUT rope arc parts in rope etc.: use sine and cosine together as one
just like arc(h) in bridge does >> see the arch in architecture is as to create no right angles(Achille's Heels)

Gonna take some time to digest all that (just like I'm still working through some of your website -- props for bringing up mycellial points there because it's still an unknown to most!)

I think I get your point about moving the nip away-from the impact point but as the graphic says that needs consistent pull (which is certainly not something you can rely upon when rigging, or at least not something I'd rely upon right now, I always have to plan as-if the piece will move more / be more dynamic than planned but I expect I'll always do that to some degree!)

I know it's deviating from knots (and is more on the anchoring of moving-pieces, not stationary anchors) but what are your thoughts on my "knotless rigging" lashing? My 'best'(not my default, sadly) is to:
- put a large o-ring onto the end of my spliced bullrope, throw the splice around the stem, then:
- pass the end of the rope through the o-ring for my first 'hitching' (doing this instead-of the half hitch, so that there's no rope-on-rope), then
- further up the piece I toss the end of the rope around the stem again, and then take its spliced eye and use that + a clevis shackle to "grab" the standing leg of rope. Wouldn't that eliminate all the weak points of the HH+bolan setup? Actually I'll snap a pic to be clear what I mean:

By replacing the rope-on-rope half hitch with a Clevis (or an O-Ring floating on the line, I used to leave one for this but 'stole' it for a second "treesqueeze" lanyard), and replacing the bolan with a clean, eye-splice girth hitching, it seems this is about the gentlest to set your rope to a log, no?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Even tho all this goes into arcs, it is VERY DIRECTIONAL per the initial LINEAR force imposed as input thru Standing Part(SPart)
>>into the arcs of the knot internals that use the force, to control own self.
>>thus SPart is the linkage between outside world and knot internals; in Hitches as terminations of rope force path, or Bends as continuation of rope force path
.
But SPart is also a support column, the less pure inline/more deformed to the LINEAR load pull of gravity, winch etc.
>>the less efficient will be it's 'reach' to use all of force and length contained to displace against the vertical force OR space
>>A bent SPart can not use all tension to hold load, any more that can use total length to reach farthest, it is bent/angled so not dedicated purpose to target.

Rope flows as 1 continuous ribbon, but under load still have 'ropeParts' of different utility functions to work together as components
>>just as if support structure materials were nonMalleable(rock), malleable(metal) or carve-able(wood) simplest classes of early materials
Find flexibles(rope) as just another class of materials, subject to same architectural geometries as other materials
>>save for the specified variances that define it's class as separate
>> that is rigid only against inline load, then only in tension direction on that axis, and only rigid enough for load.
>>as opposed to rigids of nonMalleable(rock), malleable(metal) or carve-able(wood)
.
So, if pull with rope less across SPart as a support column, is stronger/more efficient; but powerd by same load, there must be a trade-off..

Round Turn as a contraption around SPart ; pulls more along/less across.
Where a linear rope part ends vs. arc starts is TOTALLY dependent on the DIRECTION of the input pull powering the arc.
Linears(nonArcs) will pull opposing directions , one of which is direction of load empowering the pull
Arc's endpoints will BOTH pull in same directions, in same towards load or directly away as linears(nonArcs).
Half Arc/shearing arc/cross-lateral arc is ANY 90degrees from initiating load pull direction
.
Rope pulled South, will seat hardest Nip on North side of host, in primary Turn arc after initial raw input of SPart
>>the arc can use both cosine and sine for support and friction around North side of host
The South side of host has linear SPart that pull away from host
>>and only use direct, raw cosine for support and separately uses the more diffused/deflected sine only may be used for grip
>>Arc can acquiesce to using both cosine and sine as one, but linear can't
>>RT as contraption around SPart support column raises cosine, but drops sine, pulls away from host more
So, gives more efficient column of support , but less grip in trade.
.
To same going along with forces, rather than not mantra;
Would find clevis as a linear line dictated on round position, where rope would follow more amicably (especially in HH position. that takes most raw hit).
>>would say if takes less time to retrieve clevis, unscrew, mate parts (putting spin part in eye, not where it can roll along rope);
>>than to tie DBY in rope, would be better to practice DBY while watching TV as distraction.

Clevis is super tough, dual legged support (vs carabiner 1 leg support viewing gate only as mousing/keeper);
but can dent someone's coconut, get lost, is extra part and perhaps slower than plain jane, all-in-one rope strategy
Rope will be strength limiter in chain, and is bent about the same, as a deformed support column anyway.
>>view rope as a soft link resource, like fan belt of only so many cycles and sun/air slow degrading over time anyway.